[Drewch]

This brings up a question. Why would aging beer be better in a glass bottle than in a stainless steel keg? Has anyone done side-by-side blind taste tests? I bet someone has!

I dunno, but I just listened to an interview with a Belgian brewer (De Ranke, if my memory isn't failng me) who said they can tell the difference even between bottle conditioning upright vs. bottling conditioning horizontally.... Surface area vs. volume or something like that. 🤷‍♂️

[Bel Air Brewing]

This brings up a question. Why would aging beer be better in a glass bottle than in a stainless steel keg? Has anyone done side-by-side blind taste tests? I bet someone has!

I dunno, but I just listened to an interview with a Belgian brewer (De Ranke, if my memory isn't failing me) who said they can tell the difference even between bottle conditioning upright vs. bottling conditioning horizontally.... Surface area vs. volume or something like that. 🤷‍♂️

They must have a hyper-sense of taste!

I (and my friends) can readily tell the difference between beer on draft vs beer in bottles. With the keg beer always winning the flavor test.

We had the same experience recently. I had saved one bottle of a Helles last year that was entered in a competition. We had some on draft in my bar also. In a side-by-side comparison, the keg beer was much better. Not even close. That bottled example actually won a medal, which shocked me.

Beer conditioned in a keg should be as good as beer conditioned in a bottle. Maybe even better, as no light can affect the beer. Is not cask conditioned ale wildly popular?

[pete b]

This brings up a question. Why would aging beer be better in a glass bottle than in a stainless steel keg? Has anyone done side-by-side blind taste tests? I bet someone has!

I dunno, but I just listened to an interview with a Belgian brewer (De Ranke, if my memory isn't failing me) who said they can tell the difference even between bottle conditioning upright vs. bottling conditioning horizontally.... Surface area vs. volume or something like that. 🤷‍♂️

They must have a hyper-sense of taste!

I (and my friends) can readily tell the difference between beer on draft vs beer in bottles. With the keg beer always winning the flavor test.

We had the same experience recently. I had saved one bottle of a Helles last year that was entered in a competition. We had some on draft in my bar also. In a side-by-side comparison, the keg beer was much better. Not even close. That bottled example actually won a medal, which shocked me.

Beer conditioned in a keg should be as good as beer conditioned in a bottle. Maybe even better, as no light can affect the beer. Is not cask conditioned ale wildly popular?

I don’t think glass vs stainless is why folks tend to age by bottle conditioning. I keg almost all of my beer but when I make a bigger beer I bottle condition at least some and store the bottles at cellar temps. I don’t have the space in my kegerator for an extra keg for years and find individual bottles convenient. A side benefit is that I enjoy big beers at cellar temperature as opposed to refrigerated temperature.

[Drewch]

They must have a hyper-sense of taste!

I would tend to agree ... without some blind tests to back it up.  Since Fred says he only bottles, maybe we can convince him to store half the bottles sideways and report back on 12-month intervals ??

Edit: Actually, it's about time to brew my own next batch of winter-warmer Christmas ale. Maybe I'll try that myself.

[Bel Air Brewing]

They must have a hyper-sense of taste!

I would tend to agree ... without some blind tests to back it up.  Since Fred says he only bottles, maybe we can convince him to store half the bottles sideways and report back on 12-month intervals ??

Edit: Actually, it's about time to brew my own next batch of winter-warmer Christmas ale. Maybe I'll try that myself.

Perhaps we will do a "cask conditioned" beer. I bought a bunch of kegs, knowing the prices were going way up. So we have enough for extended aging. Might set one of our ferment / aging rooms (i.e., freezers) at a cellar temperature for this.

Having never done this before, how much sugar would be needed in a 5 gallon keg to condition a high gravity beer? Like a Stout or a Barleywine?

[fredthecat]

They must have a hyper-sense of taste!

I would tend to agree ... without some blind tests to back it up.  Since Fred says he only bottles, maybe we can convince him to store half the bottles sideways and report back on 12-month intervals ??

Edit: Actually, it's about time to brew my own next batch of winter-warmer Christmas ale. Maybe I'll try that myself.

lol, i will set one on its side and give it at least 6 months perhaps. ill have to lookup the details of what the deranke people said about on-its-side, if its not entirely negative. i mean, there would be two potential factors? increased exposed surface area for oxidation or interaction with the bottle cap (im assuming the former), right? so you could simulate this but taking the widest bottle/container you could find, filling it with beer so it doesnt pass this widest point and giving it some time as well.

[jeffy]

They must have a hyper-sense of taste!

I would tend to agree ... without some blind tests to back it up.  Since Fred says he only bottles, maybe we can convince him to store half the bottles sideways and report back on 12-month intervals ??

Edit: Actually, it's about time to brew my own next batch of winter-warmer Christmas ale. Maybe I'll try that myself.

lol, i will set one on its side and give it at least 6 months perhaps. ill have to lookup the details of what the deranke people said about on-its-side, if its not entirely negative. i mean, there would be two potential factors? increased exposed surface area for oxidation or interaction with the bottle cap (im assuming the former), right? so you could simulate this but taking the widest bottle/container you could find, filling it with beer so it doesnt pass this widest point and giving it some time as well.

i just looked up De Ranke - are most of their beers corked?  If so, I can definitely see how storing them would make a difference.  Capped, not so much.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Found what I was looking for on cask conditioning. And, found that in one experiment, the tasters could not reliably distinguish between a force carbonated beer and a naturally carbonated beer. Yep, a single data point. But it is still valid.

I will bet that very few of us could tell the difference. CO2 is CO2. Bubbles are bubbles. Getting the right amount of CO2 is the challenge.

[Drewch]

i just looked up De Ranke - are most of their beers corked?  If so, I can definitely see how storing them would make a difference.  Capped, not so much.

It may not have been De Ranke ... I'm digging through my podcast history trying to find the episode. Unfortunately nobody posts transcripts with their episodes; so it's like looking for a needle in a stack of needles.

I've also been reading thru the MTF wiki, and there's at least some anecdotal reports that storing sideways with caps can be bad. Opinions on storing sideways with corks are mixed.

[fredthecat]

Found what I was looking for on cask conditioning. And, found that in one experiment, the tasters could not reliably distinguish between a force carbonated beer and a naturally carbonated beer. Yep, a single data point. But it is still valid.

I will bet that very few of us could tell the difference. CO2 is CO2. Bubbles are bubbles. Getting the right amount of CO2 is the challenge.

seriously doubt. especially when we're talking about people with a lot of experience in achieving desired vols of CO2. and no getting a desired amount of CO2 is not a challenge for me anymore.

[denny]

Found what I was looking for on cask conditioning. And, found that in one experiment, the tasters could not reliably distinguish between a force carbonated beer and a naturally carbonated beer. Yep, a single data point. But it is still valid.

I will bet that very few of us could tell the difference. CO2 is CO2. Bubbles are bubbles. Getting the right amount of CO2 is the challenge.

seriously doubt. especially when we're talking about people with a lot of experience in achieving desired vols of CO2. and no getting a desired amount of CO2 is not a challenge for me anymore.

You should seriously doubt.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Found what I was looking for on cask conditioning. And, found that in one experiment, the tasters could not reliably distinguish between a force carbonated beer and a naturally carbonated beer. Yep, a single data point. But it is still valid.

I will bet that very few of us could tell the difference. CO2 is CO2. Bubbles are bubbles. Getting the right amount of CO2 is the challenge.

seriously doubt. especially when we're talking about people with a lot of experience in achieving desired vols of CO2. and no getting a desired amount of CO2 is not a challenge for me anymore.

Just reporting what I find on other forums. Ok, we can doubt this info. The people involved reporting the CO2 data are highly experienced.
Good for you! Glad you are proficient at CO2 management. It is still a black magic art for me. But then, I do not cask condition, or bottle condition anything.

edit: My brewing friend and neighbor feels the bottle conditioned / cask conditioned beers have finer, smaller bubbles. Is Sierra Nevada Pale Ale bottle conditioned? I think it is.

[Skeeter686]

Not a bad suggestion, but barleywine is often stored a long time and force caring isn't the best way to do that.  Best I've ever done in a comp was a 5 year old BW .

One of the excuses I made for starting to invest in kegging was that I'd read (somewhere... don't recall the source now) that kegging or bottling from a keg is better than bottle conditioning for beers that are going to be aged.  Something about how sitting on the yeast for so long may not be ideal.

Why would force carbing be a problem?

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[narvin]

Not a bad suggestion, but barleywine is often stored a long time and force caring isn't the best way to do that.  Best I've ever done in a comp was a 5 year old BW .

One of the excuses I made for starting to invest in kegging was that I'd read (somewhere... don't recall the source now) that kegging or bottling from a keg is better than bottle conditioning for beers that are going to be aged.  Something about how sitting on the yeast for so long may not be ideal.

Why would force carbing be a problem?

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Oxidation.  Even at the pro level where they measure total packaging oxygen sub 20 parts per billion, most long aged beers are bottle conditioned.  At home, you're likely inviting even more oxygen in at bottling and without active yeast it will remain in the headspace for years.

Force carbonating in general also introduce more oxidation into the beer, even before aging, since bottled CO2 is not 100% pure.  While this may not matter for a beer that you will keep cold and drink fresh, it's not great for long aging in a cellar.

[denny]

Not a bad suggestion, but barleywine is often stored a long time and force caring isn't the best way to do that.  Best I've ever done in a comp was a 5 year old BW .

One of the excuses I made for starting to invest in kegging was that I'd read (somewhere... don't recall the source now) that kegging or bottling from a keg is better than bottle conditioning for beers that are going to be aged.  Something about how sitting on the yeast for so long may not be ideal.

Why would force carbing be a problem?

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As far as I know, it's the opposite. The yeast in the bottles will supposedly scavenge O2.