Author Topic: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well  (Read 896 times)

Offline narvin

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2022, 02:49:03 pm »
Unlike other breweries, our natural water doesn’t need chlorinating or softening before brewing; it rises from our artesian wells clean, clear and ready for brewing.

Clever wording, they are silent on the need for hardening  ;D.  I suppose adding gypsum to the mash could be considered completely separate from "water treatment"

So, you say they are being less than candid in their wording.
If they do not mention anything about adding chemicals, is it safe to assume that they do add chemicals?

I have no firsthand knowledge of PU's water, but I'd trust Martin over anyone else about it.  As a longtime fan of the trappist and abbey beers, I've encountered a lot of this marketing speak when trying to decipher their water, spices (or lack thereof), malt, candi sugar, and other things.  They like to keep the mystique even though it may not always jibe with reality.  The use of mineral free water as the ideal water for light lagers may be one of these things.

As for chemicals, gypsum is a mineral and could be considered a natural ingredient.

Offline denny

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2022, 03:48:10 pm »
Unlike other breweries, our natural water doesn’t need chlorinating or softening before brewing; it rises from our artesian wells clean, clear and ready for brewing.

Clever wording, they are silent on the need for hardening  ;D.  I suppose adding gypsum to the mash could be considered completely separate from "water treatment"

So, you say they are being less than candid in their wording.
If they do not mention anything about adding chemicals, is it safe to assume that they do add chemicals?

I have no firsthand knowledge of PU's water, but I'd trust Martin over anyone else about it.  As a longtime fan of the trappist and abbey beers, I've encountered a lot of this marketing speak when trying to decipher their water, spices (or lack thereof), malt, candi sugar, and other things.  They like to keep the mystique even though it may not always jibe with reality.  The use of mineral free water as the ideal water for light lagers may be one of these things.

As for chemicals, gypsum is a mineral and could be considered a natural ingredient.

Chemicals can be a natural ingredient, too. Everything is made of chemicals.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline narvin

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2022, 03:58:04 pm »
Unlike other breweries, our natural water doesn’t need chlorinating or softening before brewing; it rises from our artesian wells clean, clear and ready for brewing.

Clever wording, they are silent on the need for hardening  ;D.  I suppose adding gypsum to the mash could be considered completely separate from "water treatment"

So, you say they are being less than candid in their wording.
If they do not mention anything about adding chemicals, is it safe to assume that they do add chemicals?

I have no firsthand knowledge of PU's water, but I'd trust Martin over anyone else about it.  As a longtime fan of the trappist and abbey beers, I've encountered a lot of this marketing speak when trying to decipher their water, spices (or lack thereof), malt, candi sugar, and other things.  They like to keep the mystique even though it may not always jibe with reality.  The use of mineral free water as the ideal water for light lagers may be one of these things.

As for chemicals, gypsum is a mineral and could be considered a natural ingredient.

Chemicals can be a natural ingredient, too. Everything is made of chemicals.

100% agree, however food labelling is weird and there are certain chemicals that by virtue of their origin (and nothing else) are considered "natural ingredients" in the US.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 04:57:04 am by narvin »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2022, 08:41:39 pm »
Unlike other breweries, our natural water doesn’t need chlorinating or softening before brewing; it rises from our artesian wells clean, clear and ready for brewing.

Clever wording, they are silent on the need for hardening  ;D.  I suppose adding gypsum to the mash could be considered completely separate from "water treatment"

So, you say they are being less than candid in their wording.
If they do not mention anything about adding chemicals, is it safe to assume that they do add chemicals?

I have no firsthand knowledge of PU's water, but I'd trust Martin over anyone else about it.  As a longtime fan of the trappist and abbey beers, I've encountered a lot of this marketing speak when trying to decipher their water, spices (or lack thereof), malt, candi sugar, and other things.  They like to keep the mystique even though it may not always jibe with reality.  The use of mineral free water as the ideal water for light lagers may be one of these things.

As for chemicals, gypsum is a mineral and could be considered a natural ingredient.

Chemicals can be a natural ingredient, too. Everything is made of chemicals.
Arsenic is natural.
Jeff Rankert
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Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2022, 06:26:03 am »
Unlike other breweries, our natural water doesn’t need chlorinating or softening before brewing; it rises from our artesian wells clean, clear and ready for brewing.

Clever wording, they are silent on the need for hardening  ;D.  I suppose adding gypsum to the mash could be considered completely separate from "water treatment"

So, you say they are being less than candid in their wording.
If they do not mention anything about adding chemicals, is it safe to assume that they do add chemicals?

I have no firsthand knowledge of PU's water, but I'd trust Martin over anyone else about it.  As a longtime fan of the trappist and abbey beers, I've encountered a lot of this marketing speak when trying to decipher their water, spices (or lack thereof), malt, candi sugar, and other things.  They like to keep the mystique even though it may not always jibe with reality.  The use of mineral free water as the ideal water for light lagers may be one of these things.

As for chemicals, gypsum is a mineral and could be considered a natural ingredient.

Chemicals can be a natural ingredient, too. Everything is made of chemicals.
Arsenic is natural.

So is ammonia, being found in trace quantities in nature. It also happens to be in many city's water supply. We have a filter (not RO) that removes it.

In my Craft Beer & Brewing latest issue, the concentrate on lagers. All kinds, with many recipes from breweries.
One brewery who brews Czech Lagers recommended using 90% RO water, and 10% filtered tap, if the tap water is moderately hard. No specifics, other than that. I am tempted to try it.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2022, 06:46:22 am »
Unlike other breweries, our natural water doesn’t need chlorinating or softening before brewing; it rises from our artesian wells clean, clear and ready for brewing.

Clever wording, they are silent on the need for hardening  ;D.  I suppose adding gypsum to the mash could be considered completely separate from "water treatment"

So, you say they are being less than candid in their wording.
If they do not mention anything about adding chemicals, is it safe to assume that they do add chemicals?

I have no firsthand knowledge of PU's water, but I'd trust Martin over anyone else about it.  As a longtime fan of the trappist and abbey beers, I've encountered a lot of this marketing speak when trying to decipher their water, spices (or lack thereof), malt, candi sugar, and other things.  They like to keep the mystique even though it may not always jibe with reality.  The use of mineral free water as the ideal water for light lagers may be one of these things.

As for chemicals, gypsum is a mineral and could be considered a natural ingredient.

Chemicals can be a natural ingredient, too. Everything is made of chemicals.
Arsenic is natural.

So is ammonia, being found in trace quantities in nature. It also happens to be in many city's water supply. We have a filter (not RO) that removes it.

In my Craft Beer & Brewing latest issue, the concentrate on lagers. All kinds, with many recipes from breweries.
One brewery who brews Czech Lagers recommended using 90% RO water, and 10% filtered tap, if the tap water is moderately hard. No specifics, other than that. I am tempted to try it.

ever considered lo-do brewing? https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

this is the best way to make Perfect German Pilsners and Lagers apparently.

there was a study that says:

According to their original paper on LODO, “On Brewing Bavarian Helles: Adapting to Low Oxygen Brewing,” oxygen exposure in excess of 1ppm (parts per million) for more than 1 minute at any point during the hot side will result in an irreversible loss of malt flavor and aroma.

Offline Ortizer

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2022, 08:46:02 am »
Yes, certainly a marketing thing. But no doubt that very soft water is a trademark of any Premium Pale Czech Lager.

From BJCP: Soft water with low sulfate and carbonate content. Low ion water provides a distinctively soft, rounded hop profile despite high hopping rates.

Regarding malt, we used to be able to buy Moravian malt back in the 90's, from St. Pat's Homebrew Supply, in Austin, Texas.

Not all Czech water is pristine water devoid of minerals.
Specifically you'd be looking at the water around Pilsen since that's where the style originated.  Similar to the default water profile for ipa being Burton-on-Trent rather than just "England"

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The profiles for Burton On Trent vary widely due to the location and depth of the well. Martin Brungard did a series of articles for Zymurgy  on the famous brewing cities, you can search on his name. Ron Parrinson has written some about Burton water on his Blog.

The Jennings brewery in Cockermouth up in the Lakes District has low mineral conternt water. There were many stacks of bags of the various brewing water salts that to adust the brewing water. Not all the water in England is full of SO4.
I guess technically you'd also be looking at what was common back in the 19th century.  Not knowing a lot about wells, would you see the same difference in depth and such then you do now or was it more the mystique of a single brewery so to speak?

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« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 08:48:42 am by Ortizer »

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2022, 03:22:46 pm »
So...brewed this a couple days ago. Bought all of the chemicals needed.
But after reading my current issue of Craft Beer & Brewing and a suggestion from one of the breweries that specialize in Czech Lagers, I went with 90% RO and 10% moderately hard filtered city tap water.

We will see how this works out.

Also, went with 10 ounces of Saaz hops. 2.3% AA. 39 IBU's.
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Offline MNWayne

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2022, 08:52:48 pm »
We must remember that all commercial beer recipes are proprietary. The plan is the ultimate consumer should never know how to replicate their product.  They have an edge and have been using it since inception. So let's not judge them on their ingredient list,  even if they use natural minerals and want to still say pure. BTW I have very low mineral load in my water and adding gypsum is critical in my Czech Pils.
Far better to dare mighty things....

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2022, 10:17:11 pm »
Yes, certainly a marketing thing. But no doubt that very soft water is a trademark of any Premium Pale Czech Lager.

From BJCP: Soft water with low sulfate and carbonate content. Low ion water provides a distinctively soft, rounded hop profile despite high hopping rates.

Read about Burton in Section 3.
https://www.brunwater.com/water-knowledge
Regarding malt, we used to be able to buy Moravian malt back in the 90's, from St. Pat's Homebrew Supply, in Austin, Texas.

Not all Czech water is pristine water devoid of minerals.
Specifically you'd be looking at the water around Pilsen since that's where the style originated.  Similar to the default water profile for ipa being Burton-on-Trent rather than just "England"

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
The profiles for Burton On Trent vary widely due to the location and depth of the well. Martin Brungard did a series of articles for Zymurgy  on the famous brewing cities, you can search on his name. Ron Parrinson has written some about Burton water on his Blog.

The Jennings brewery in Cockermouth up in the Lakes District has low mineral conternt water. There were many stacks of bags of the various brewing water salts that to adust the brewing water. Not all the water in England is full of SO4.
I guess technically you'd also be looking at what was common back in the 19th century.  Not knowing a lot about wells, would you see the same difference in depth and such then you do now or was it more the mystique of a single brewery so to speak?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline denny

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2022, 08:42:31 am »
We must remember that all commercial beer recipes are proprietary. The plan is the ultimate consumer should never know how to replicate their product.  They have an edge and have been using it since inception. So let's not judge them on their ingredient list,  even if they use natural minerals and want to still say pure. BTW I have very low mineral load in my water and adding gypsum is critical in my Czech Pils.

All?  That's a pretty broad brush.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline MNWayne

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2022, 05:28:09 pm »
There are so many details omitted from even the breweries generous with their recipes. Ferment temps, water details, yeast specifics, etc. All proprietary info, all affecting the final product. So yeah, all breweries, their goal, after all, is to remain in business.
Far better to dare mighty things....

Offline narvin

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Re: Water - Naturally Soft Artesian Well
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2022, 05:39:15 pm »
There are so many details omitted from even the breweries generous with their recipes. Ferment temps, water details, yeast specifics, etc. All proprietary info, all affecting the final product. So yeah, all breweries, their goal, after all, is to remain in business.

I know many small breweries that will tell you all of these details. The fact remains that you'd still never be able to make an identical beer; even they struggle to do this with their exact system and ingredients from batch to batch.  They want to remain in business, and 90% of business success is brand.  These details don't matter to the average consumer.

Now, for a historic brewery like PU, remaining relevant in the day and age when new is better means playing up your strengths.  Adding "secrecy" where none is needed is a great way to add luster to an older brand.