Author Topic: A clarity mystery...  (Read 1873 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2022, 08:02:26 am »
This is after being hit with a gel solution TWICE!  :(



Whatever it is, it seems to be easy to do and there is nothing about the process that stands out as an "OMG, I just messed up and now the beer is going to have a stubborn haze" kind of thing.  The idea that the malt had an issue like "high protein levels" or something seems to check some boxes because it's not like it's something you can SEE and all of the other pieces of the process seem to check out.  The batches on either side of this one were clear and made with the same yeast but different malts, pH checked out okay, water is consistent, everything seemed okay visually on brewday... what else could it be?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 08:05:54 am by Village Taphouse »
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline majorvices

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2022, 10:50:18 am »
I'd hit that! Looks delicious.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2022, 10:54:04 am »
I'd hit that! Looks delicious.
It actually does taste delicious so I suppose I am making a stink about nothing but I'd still like to know what happened here. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2022, 01:27:06 pm »
What I would do is set aside Saturday, maybe invite a trusted friend over, and hit the keg while pondering the problem until you figure it out or the keg is empty. Either way, by Saturday night your cloudy beer issue will be in the rear view mirror.

Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2022, 01:30:43 pm »
At the risk of repeating myself, I'll ask again. What kind of turbidity is it? Is it chill haze? Does it become clearer when brought up to room temperature?
Or is is it permanent haze? Does it remain the same clarity when warm as when cold?

These are the two major groups of turbidity, permanent and temporary. Unless you determine which group your beer lands in, you are not trouble shooting a problem, you are instead taking a shotgun approach and guessing at the problem. Divide and concur, know what your dealing with and take it from there. 

Chill haze is a fairly common problem (if you want to call it a problem) and is temporary. It requires both protein and polyphenols to achieve the "haziness". As the beer chills the proteins form a weak hydrogen bond with the polyphenols, they become large enough to defuse light and become visible. This bond is broken when the beer is warmed and the molecules break apart. Do this cycle enough and it goes into the realm of permanent haze. To get rid of this you need to reduce the amount of soluble proteins and the polyphenols in the beer. Polyphenols are not desirable in beer at all anyway. Proteins are not always bad, but can be a PITA. PVPP (Polyclar) targets polyphenols and leaves the proteins alone. It can be used in the boil or in post fermentation, it does not work well in the presence of yeast. Gelatin is indiscriminate, it targets yeast, proteins and polyphenols. That could also be said for salicylic acid (Biofine Clear). Yeast haze is also temporary. There are remedies for all types, but you need to know what's wrong before you can determine a fix for it.

Permanent haze is usually caused by unconverted starch, bacteria infection, etc. Any of these conditions are bad for beer. Here is a pretty good article about turbidity: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/clarifying_homebrew

If you are serious about getting to the bottom of your haze issue you need to take a systematic approach to find out what exactly is going on with your beer. Guessing and "shotgunning" is only going to lead to wasted time and frustration. I doubt it will be there will one single thing that will fix it.


Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2022, 02:57:10 pm »
At the risk of repeating myself, I'll ask again. What kind of turbidity is it? Is it chill haze? Does it become clearer when brought up to room temperature?
Or is is it permanent haze? Does it remain the same clarity when warm as when cold?

These are the two major groups of turbidity, permanent and temporary. Unless you determine which group your beer lands in, you are not trouble shooting a problem, you are instead taking a shotgun approach and guessing at the problem. Divide and concur, know what your dealing with and take it from there. 

Chill haze is a fairly common problem (if you want to call it a problem) and is temporary. It requires both protein and polyphenols to achieve the "haziness". As the beer chills the proteins form a weak hydrogen bond with the polyphenols, they become large enough to defuse light and become visible. This bond is broken when the beer is warmed and the molecules break apart. Do this cycle enough and it goes into the realm of permanent haze. To get rid of this you need to reduce the amount of soluble proteins and the polyphenols in the beer. Polyphenols are not desirable in beer at all anyway. Proteins are not always bad, but can be a PITA. PVPP (Polyclar) targets polyphenols and leaves the proteins alone. It can be used in the boil or in post fermentation, it does not work well in the presence of yeast. Gelatin is indiscriminate, it targets yeast, proteins and polyphenols. That could also be said for salicylic acid (Biofine Clear). Yeast haze is also temporary. There are remedies for all types, but you need to know what's wrong before you can determine a fix for it.

Permanent haze is usually caused by unconverted starch, bacteria infection, etc. Any of these conditions are bad for beer. Here is a pretty good article about turbidity: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/clarifying_homebrew

If you are serious about getting to the bottom of your haze issue you need to take a systematic approach to find out what exactly is going on with your beer. Guessing and "shotgunning" is only going to lead to wasted time and frustration. I doubt it will be there will one single thing that will fix it.
I addressed this earlier in the thread.  The haze appears to be there when the beer is at or closer to room temp so it does not seem to be chill haze.  I do have some Polyclar and I might dust it off for a batch coming up tomorrow. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2022, 03:11:34 pm »
I do have a bottle of BSG Polyclar 10.  There are no instructions on the bottle.  I did find some information on the BSG website but they appear to be referring to commercial breweries in their documentation because they're talking about pounds of this stuff per X number of hectoliters of beer.  So does anyone here use it and have a good reference point?  One site I saw said to use from .5 to 1.5g per gallon for all-malt beers and .2 to .8g per gallon for "all other beers".  It does not say to mix it with water or where to add it (boil kettle, whirlpool, etc).  I thought that in the past I mixed it with water and dropped it into the boil with about 15 minutes left.  If anyone has a line on that, please post.  I'll probably use some in the batch tomorrow.  Cheers.

EDIT:  A picture of the BSG bottle of Polyclar 10 that I just found online says "requires filtration" at the bottom of the label.  What does THAT mean?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 03:13:51 pm by Village Taphouse »
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline denny

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2022, 03:49:34 pm »
I do have a bottle of BSG Polyclar 10.  There are no instructions on the bottle.  I did find some information on the BSG website but they appear to be referring to commercial breweries in their documentation because they're talking about pounds of this stuff per X number of hectoliters of beer.  So does anyone here use it and have a good reference point?  One site I saw said to use from .5 to 1.5g per gallon for all-malt beers and .2 to .8g per gallon for "all other beers".  It does not say to mix it with water or where to add it (boil kettle, whirlpool, etc).  I thought that in the past I mixed it with water and dropped it into the boil with about 15 minutes left.  If anyone has a line on that, please post.  I'll probably use some in the batch tomorrow.  Cheers.

EDIT:  A picture of the BSG bottle of Polyclar 10 that I just found online says "requires filtration" at the bottom of the label.  What does THAT mean?

It means that it remains in the beer and you have to filter to remove it.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2022, 03:59:04 pm »
It means that it remains in the beer and you have to filter to remove it.
And it would be dangerous to ingest it?  Uh, no. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline jeffy

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2022, 04:01:22 pm »
Meanwhile, Great Western takes complete responsibility for my haze and intends to reimburse Ken for his hazy beers as well.  Here’s what she said,
“Thanks for reaching out!  Glad to hear you’re using our malts in your homebrewing process.
 
While we have seen some elevated protein in this years crop, there are many factors that can influence haze.  Best bet is to work with your local homebrew shop to help troubleshoot your particular situation.”
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2022, 04:42:41 pm »
Meanwhile, Great Western takes complete responsibility for my haze and intends to reimburse Ken for his hazy beers as well.  Here’s what she said,
“Thanks for reaching out!  Glad to hear you’re using our malts in your homebrewing process.
 
While we have seen some elevated protein in this years crop, there are many factors that can influence haze.  Best bet is to work with your local homebrew shop to help troubleshoot your particular situation.”
Hmm.  Do we take that to mean that it's possible that the malt could be at least part of the issue?  "Elevated proteins" makes me rub my chin.  :D
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline majorvices

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2022, 05:11:32 pm »
Meanwhile, Great Western takes complete responsibility for my haze and intends to reimburse Ken for his hazy beers as well.  Here’s what she said,
“Thanks for reaching out!  Glad to hear you’re using our malts in your homebrewing process.
 
While we have seen some elevated protein in this years crop, there are many factors that can influence haze.  Best bet is to work with your local homebrew shop to help troubleshoot your particular situation.”
Hmm.  Do we take that to mean that it's possible that the malt could be at least part of the issue?  "Elevated proteins" makes me rub my chin.  :D

My malt guy told me to pay special attention to my malt COA for this past years crop. So it could be part of the issue for sure. I can post what I have if you like. It's Great western.

That said, he was more concerned about efficiency.

I've had some beers that had a slight haze even after they were centrifuged. Sometimes it just happens. I definitely blame it on the malt or my mashing process when that happens
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 05:22:40 pm by majorvices »

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2022, 05:25:04 pm »
Meanwhile, Great Western takes complete responsibility for my haze and intends to reimburse Ken for his hazy beers as well.  Here’s what she said,
“Thanks for reaching out!  Glad to hear you’re using our malts in your homebrewing process.
 
While we have seen some elevated protein in this years crop, there are many factors that can influence haze.  Best bet is to work with your local homebrew shop to help troubleshoot your particular situation.”
Hmm.  Do we take that to mean that it's possible that the malt could be at least part of the issue?  "Elevated proteins" makes me rub my chin.  :D

My malt guy admired me to pay special attention to my malt COA for this past years crop. So it could be part of the issue for sure. I can post what I have if you like. It's Great western.

That said, he was more concerned about efficiency.

I've had some beers that had a slight haze even after they were centrifuged. Sometimes it just happens. I definitely blame it on the malt or my mashing process when that happens
What is a protein percentage in a malt that would raise eyebrows?  I seem to remember someone years ago talking about this and they were talking about 10-11% or something?  Do I have that right or is that number gibberish?  The fact that it could be high proteins levels in the malt makes some sense... it pops up when you feel like you did everything properly and there seems like no reason for it.  As mentioned, other beers made with this malt were cloudy-ish.  I have never, ever looked closely at malt lot data.  I wouldn't even know what to look for.  If a number was an issue, I would have no idea. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2022, 05:38:48 pm »
I know I sound like a broken record but I feel like this has to be a clue.  When you tap the first glass in the session, the pour is super cloudy and sludgy.  I just poured one from this keg and it's unbelievably opaque.  Usually on a normal keg you have some cloudy beers at the start but then the rest of the keg pours clear.  But on this pour there were 3-4 seconds (about 1/3rd of the way through the pour) where it looked crazy sludgy and the beers will slightly clear as the night goes on but then tomorrow the first pour will be sludgy.  What TF is that all about?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: A clarity mystery...
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2022, 05:59:07 pm »
It means that it remains in the beer and you have to filter to remove it.
And it would be dangerous to ingest it?  Uh, no.
PVPP drops out of solution, no need to filter. It’s also used as a filler in pharmaceutical applications. If you’re  a commercial brewery, then by regulation you need to filter it, no need for homebrewers to filter.  It’s harmless.

Second, you have permanent haze, PVPP (Polyclar) will not improve permanent haze.  It only works for chill haze.