Author Topic: Vienna Lager fermentation question  (Read 3040 times)

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6308
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2010, 07:39:38 AM »
I know a lot of it has to do with pros having silos of 2 row and not wanting to buy bags of grain for one recipe, but that doesn't mean us homebrewers have to do it that way!

Exactly! A lot of thee pros use the malts they have on hand to make their beer. They want to have a(n) [insert style here] - they don't want to spend an additional $3-5 K+ on malts to make them. That's why you see chocolate, black malt, 2 row, etc, in their recipes.

Again, they may be very good beers. But they will not necessarily taste like what you get across the ocean.
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline Mikey

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2010, 07:45:21 AM »
Quote
Again, they may be very good beers. But they will not necessarily taste like what you get across the ocean.

Works for me. Been over there, done that, not going back.

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2010, 08:21:38 AM »
If you want your Vienna to be darker, you can always do a decoction.  Or use some dark Munich.  Or both.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2010, 08:26:12 AM »
If you want your Vienna to be darker, you can always do a decoction.  Or use some dark Munich.  Or both.

+1

When brewing German beers...do as the Germans do...   ;)  :D
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 08:27:48 AM by bluesman »
Ron Price

Offline stavesacre

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2010, 09:17:24 AM »
If you want your Vienna to be darker, you can always do a decoction.  Or use some dark Munich.  Or both.

I just pulled up the home brew wiki article on Decotion mashing, and it is a bit above my head. How does that darken the brew? I'm guessing it caramalizes some of the wort?

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2010, 10:13:40 AM »
Maillard reactions, not caramelization.  Grab some of your mash and boil it.  Watch the color deepen.  Be careful not to scorch it; that's not the kind of darkening you want...
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline stavesacre

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2010, 10:22:56 AM »
Alright, I'll give it a shot next time I brew. Thanks for the heads up.

Offline blatz

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2453
  • Paul Blatz - Jupiter, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2010, 10:25:46 AM »
Alright, I'll give it a shot next time I brew. Thanks for the heads up.

aren't you doing extract (from the original post)?
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline stavesacre

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2010, 12:23:23 PM »
I did do extract this time. I did so only because I am about to move to Okinawa, and my mash tun was out of commision.
I inherited a lot of brew equipment from a friend who decided to move up to 10 gallon batches, so I am still learning the ropes, but with a big head start.

Offline Jeff Renner

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2010, 01:30:14 PM »
A simple way to get much of the flavor benefits of a decoction is to do a pseudo-decoction.  I have an article about this technique in a recent Zymurgy.  It's simple.  Just do two parallel mashes, one in a biggish kitchen pot (I use an eight quart/liter pot) and the other in your usual mash tun.  I like to mash 1/4 - 1/3 of the grain bill in the smaller pot, and I put it in a preheated oven to keep the temperature.

After mashing the smaller one for thirty minutes or so between 145-150F, bring it to a boil and boil for thirty minutes, being careful to stir and not scorch.  Just before starting the boil, mash in your main mash, again between 145-150F.

Then carefully add the boiling smaller mash to the main mash, which should boost it up to around 158F.  While you've destroyed the enzymes in the smaller mash by boiling it, most of the starches were converted, and there is enough excess enzyme activity, even when using 100% dark Munich malt, in my experience, to get complete conversion, and actually, increased efficiency over a straight mash.

I actually place my eight quart pot inside a big 21 quart pressure cooker, which does several things.  It produces even more of those yummy melanoidins, it does it quickly, and it eliminates the need for stirring.  As a matter of fact, I did this Monday, and the smell from 100% Vienna malt coming out of that pressure cooker was beautiful. :)

My favorite recipe for this method is a Dunkel with all dark Munich and a touch of Carafa II.  The recipe in the Zymurgy article.
AHA Member since 1980, Life Member
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild charter member (1986)
AHA Governing Committee (2002 - 2011)
BJCP since 1991, National
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

Offline ryang

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
  • Indian Hills CO
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2010, 01:51:14 PM »
I followed your Zymurgy article for psuedo-decoction for my o-fest and a hefeweizen and they turned out fantastic.  It's a simple way to get the decoction-esque flavor profile at a fraction of the labor.

A big plus to that method.

Offline Thirsty_Monk

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1843
  • Eau Claire WI
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2010, 06:48:51 AM »
If you want your Vienna to be darker, you can always do a decoction.  Or use some dark Munich.  Or both.

+1

When brewing German beers...do as the Germans do...   ;)  :D
small correction.
When brewing Austrian beer.... Do as the Austrians do...

But that would not be correct ether because Austrians do not do it anymore.
Na Zdravie

On Tap At The TapRoom:
Bohemian Pilsner
Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
Root beer

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2010, 07:11:30 AM »
If you want your Vienna to be darker, you can always do a decoction.  Or use some dark Munich.  Or both.

+1

When brewing German beers...do as the Germans do...   ;)  :D
small correction.
When brewing Austrian beer.... Do as the Austrians do...

But that would not be correct ether because Austrians do not do it anymore.

Good catch my freind!

Vienna is indeed in Austria.
Ron Price

Offline blatz

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2453
  • Paul Blatz - Jupiter, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Vienna Lager fermentation question
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2010, 07:12:55 AM »

When brewing German beers...do as the Germans do...   ;)  :D

small correction.

you mean as only a few Germans still do and most don't anymore  ;) :D ;D
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281