Author Topic: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...  (Read 1269 times)

Offline dmtaylor

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

This very thread has about a 50/50 chance of becoming yet another example of why certain things need to be banned, in the same way as politics and religion.
Dave

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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.

It was in a podcast some time ago, where he addressed issues about brewing, and stated that temp control and a few other tings were much more important than worrying about oxygen.

Of course, I am paraphrasing his comments, not quoting.

As for Bamforth's experience, the former head brewer at Bass Ale, and current Quality Control Manager for Sierra Nevada, I do not question his advice.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 08:21:18 am by Bel Air Brewing »
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Offline narvin

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.

Offline neuse

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.
We do what we can and live with what we can’t.
I do what I can and do a work-around to compensate for what I can't - by not giving the beer time to oxidize. I plan brew days so that I'm out of homebrew a few days before the new batch will be ready to drink. Then I drink all of that batch before starting to drink the next. This minimizes the time the beer will sit and oxidize. This isn't for everyone, but it's a simple low tech method of reducing oxidation.

Online BrewBama

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The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2022, 08:15:27 am »
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.
I agree. There are plenty of brewers here that have adopted end to end techniques to mitigate O2 that are in good standing simply by applying Wheaton’s Law.

Offline denny

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.
We do what we can and live with what we can’t.

Exactly.
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Offline denny

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

I've always felt like that. M there is no change of my position.

People who were banned were banned because of their attitude toward others, not the information they presented.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline HighVoltageMan!

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The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.


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I love listening to Dr. Bamforth. He's engaging, practical and down to earth. In all the times I've heard him speak about beer, he has stated very clearly he does not home brew, so he can't comment directly on the subject. In fact I don't believe he ever was a brewer, he mostly worked in quality control, research and teaching in England and the US.
He has however commented on oxygen, especially post fermentation. Stressing the importance of reducing it or eliminating it altogether post fermentation. He has also changed his opinion slightly about HSA, saying it should be avoided. He then made an off handed comment about decoction mash; "why would you decoction mash if you're trying to avoid oxygen in the mash?". It should be noted that Narziss promotes decoction, a lot of seemingly contradictions. The truth is out there, I'm just not sure there is a single source on this subject.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 08:39:10 am by HighVoltageMan! »

Offline lupulus

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The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.

It was in a podcast some time ago, where he addressed issues about brewing, and stated that temp control and a few other tings were much more important than worrying about oxygen.

Of course, I am paraphrasing his comments, not quoting.

As for Bamforth's experience, the former head brewer at Bass Ale, and current Quality Control Manager for Sierra Nevada, I do not question his advice.
Thanks so much for the clarification!
Bamforth has been taken out of context on this topic quite often.

He does know exposure to oxygen is much higher in homebrewing because of square-cube.

He does say that the cold side is, in his view, more important than the hot side (not that the hot side is unimportant).

I have more than 50 papers from him, and when he talks, I listen respectfully.

Same goes for Narziss, the highest authority in brewing in the past 50 years. He did write the book  in Brewing and published many papers.

Narziss is mostly a lager brewer; his thinking cannot be detached from this.

Bamforth is mostly an ale brewer, although he did brew a mass-market non-German lager.

The more we read from either one, the better brewers we will be.

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Offline hmbrw4life

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.

Clearly not, plenty of those still here.
Science functions when theory correctly predicts the results of experiments.
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Offline hmbrw4life

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

I've always felt like that. M there is no change of my position.

People who were banned were banned because of their attitude toward others, not the information they presented.

Hmm, a search of the AHA forum and the internet would disagree.
Science functions when theory correctly predicts the results of experiments.
Six Sigma in a former life. Retired in the current life.

Offline dmtaylor

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Before this goes further south, I told you so.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline narvin

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I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.

Clearly not, plenty of those still here.

Good comeback.

I've said it before, even though I use many low oxygen techniques for lagers and am grateful for the information, I find the delivery method of the people who promote it to make it almost impossible to listen.

Offline lupulus

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I am NOT putting this information here to stir any pot but to ensure this information is available to all homebrewers.

Can I please ask a favor of all?

If low oxygen is not your thing, let it be.

Thanks in advance!

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Online BrewBama

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The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2022, 10:23:56 am »
A cpl thoughts:

Banning:  Lupulus and Bilsch, two of the authors of the original doc that introduced the techniques, haven’t been banned. Therefore, it must be something other than the information that causes banning.

Bamforth:  I usually cite my sources when quoting because of accusations of quoting out of context. What I found is bias sets in when two people read the same document and come away with different perspectives on what he said. (Like 180° complete opposites )

I am NOT putting this information here to stir any pot but to ensure this information is available to all homebrewers.

Can I please ask a favor of all?

If low oxygen is not your thing, let it be.

Thanks in advance!

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Couldn’t agree more. We don’t have to swing at every pitch.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 01:10:51 pm by BrewBama »