Author Topic: From Worst To First!  (Read 1216 times)

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2022, 01:59:06 pm »

And we know that flawed beer can be fixed! I wonder if this applies to people too?

i seriously doubt that. as denny said, what you did was krausening (i believe so from skimming your OP). cant remember what the issue was with the beer, diacetyl right? giving it more time could have just as easily been a factor with this beer as well. that is one thing. there are a multitude of problems that are less likely to be "fixed" to varying degrees by adding active yeast, there are some that could.
Yeast will clean up VDKs. It wont clean up phenolics, or other contamination ptoducts.
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Offline denny

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2022, 02:30:31 pm »
So going back to the OP, I'm thinking another potential lesson from this experience (other than fixing a flawed beer) would be learning what went wrong in the first place, and how to avoid it in the future. Did you come away with any lessons for future brews?

This beer was brewed exactly the same way that all of the past beers have been brewed. My procedure is very standard, with little variation from beer to beer.

At first, I thought it might be a yeast issue, having harvested this Diamond Lager so many times that we have lost count.

Also, my recipes are very standard. The one thing that was done with the 20 gallons of 5D (German Pils) that I have not done previously is a Diacetyl rest.
Not a hint of any off flavor at all. No Diacetyl. None.

So I might incorporate a D-Rest with all of my beers going forward.

But here is the question...exactly when do you do this? At what temperature? And, for how long? Do you take gravity readings at this time?

Like they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...or yeast, in this example.

I only do a d rest at most 10% of the time.  To avoid it, pitch plenty of healthy yeast and give it time to work. You need to understand why a d rest is done.  The whole purpose is to make the yeast more active, which is why my "pitch a lot and give it time" works most of the time. So, exact temp doesn't matter.  All you're doing is raising the temp to get the yeast working again.  You also need fermentables for the yeast to work on for the diacetyl consumption, so you want to do it before fermentation has reached FG. Usually 3 days is plenty long enough for it.  But again, undersatnding why you're doing it and what happens is the key to knowing how to do i
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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2022, 09:29:17 pm »
It’s quite possible this diacetyl problem was caused from stressed yeast. You made the comment before that you don’t aerate your beers. Proper oxygen levels can reduce VDK by helping the health of the yeast. Consistency starts with making sure the conditions are right to achieve your objective.

Like I mentioned before, the only people who debate whether proper aeration is important to yeast health and quality beer are homebrewers.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2022, 06:21:30 am »
It’s quite possible this diacetyl problem was caused from stressed yeast. You made the comment before that you don’t aerate your beers. Proper oxygen levels can reduce VDK by helping the health of the yeast. Consistency starts with making sure the conditions are right to achieve your objective.

Like I mentioned before, the only people who debate whether proper aeration is important to yeast health and quality beer are homebrewers.

The wort picks up oxygen as it runs out of the boil kettle.
And, our yeast is highly oxygenated prior to pitching. So much so that it will actually erupt at times, much like a volcano.

A 10 gallon split batch is in the works now, two different yeasts. Diamond (harvested many generations) and a new W-2124. Very anxious to get the results on these two.

I wondered if I rushed this particular beer. Brewed on 3-23-22, transferred to the keg on 4-5-22. OG = 1.050, FG = 1.012.
The yeast that was pitched to "fix" the beer was the same yeast that was harvested from it.
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Offline BrewBama

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From Worst To First!
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2022, 07:22:55 am »

Like I mentioned before, the only people who debate whether proper aeration is important to yeast health and quality beer are homebrewers.

This is a great point.  Commercial practices are quickly brought into question by homebrewers especially on this forum. I recently posted a question based on aeration that was dismissed as a commercial practice not required at home.

I’m not saying every commercial practice applies but before dismissing a practice as not required on the HomeBrew level I *wish* research sources with empirical data could be offered as a basis for the claim despite the numerous resources on the commercial level supporting it.

So often it’s anecdotally dismissed based on little more evidence than ‘I’ve been brewing since Eisenhower was a Corporal and I can’t tell a difference so it must not matter.’
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 07:30:08 am by BrewBama »

Offline denny

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2022, 08:26:32 am »
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2022, 08:34:50 am »
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.
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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2022, 08:53:07 am »
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2022, 09:11:26 am »
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
As far as I know he only had the problem once. It’s not systematic to his brewery. I’m speaking for him, but it seems to me he m created this thread to celebrate a success being a bad beer back to good. I don’t think he necessarily needs to change his brewing methods based on one batch among many.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2022, 10:43:43 am »
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
As far as I know he only had the problem once. It’s not systematic to his brewery. I’m speaking for him, but it seems to me he m created this thread to celebrate a success being a bad beer back to good. I don’t think he necessarily needs to change his brewing methods based on one batch among many.

This is a one-off bad batch. I cannot completely rule out lack of oxygen as a contributor, but it is doubtful. We always over pitch, 1 quart of fresh healthy slurry per 5 gallons. The yeast will actually bubble out of the gallon jug, and run down the kitchen cabinets...ask me how I know! So it is very fresh, healthy yeast.

I am still shocked that this particular beer turned out so well, after the fix was in. If I could repeat this, I would do it in a heartbeat.

If you had a lager that was basically close to finished with the ferment, and krausened it, would good things happen?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 10:47:15 am by Bel Air Brewing »
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Offline denny

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2022, 11:17:23 am »
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
As far as I know he only had the problem once. It’s not systematic to his brewery. I’m speaking for him, but it seems to me he m created this thread to celebrate a success being a bad beer back to good. I don’t think he necessarily needs to change his brewing methods based on one batch among many.

This is a one-off bad batch. I cannot completely rule out lack of oxygen as a contributor, but it is doubtful. We always over pitch, 1 quart of fresh healthy slurry per 5 gallons. The yeast will actually bubble out of the gallon jug, and run down the kitchen cabinets...ask me how I know! So it is very fresh, healthy yeast.

I am still shocked that this particular beer turned out so well, after the fix was in. If I could repeat this, I would do it in a heartbeat.

If you had a lager that was basically close to finished with the ferment, and krausened it, would good things happen?

Not necessarily. Think about it....there must be a reason that is not a usual process.
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Offline Richard

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2022, 11:43:14 am »
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.

I don't think that last part is quite true. I remember you saying that you "blasted" the wort with oxygen for x minutes. I pointed out that a high flow of oxygen is wasteful and that you should inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. I didn't say that any oxygen injection is a total waste, just that it can be inefficient if done aggressively.
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Offline BrewBama

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From Worst To First!
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2022, 12:27:47 pm »
…a high flow of oxygen is wasteful … inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. …

Good information
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 12:30:30 pm by BrewBama »

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2022, 12:28:58 pm »
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.

I don't think that last part is quite true. I remember you saying that you "blasted" the wort with oxygen for x minutes. I pointed out that a high flow of oxygen is wasteful and that you should inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. I didn't say that any oxygen injection is a total waste, just that it can be inefficient if done aggressively.

I think we did this, once or twice. There was no noticeable improvement in the beer, as I recall.
We have a diffuser, so the bubbles were tiny, micro-bubbles. We never did this again after my initial post on this forum about the procedure.
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Offline MDL

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Re: From Worst To First!
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2022, 12:48:17 pm »
Just to clarify things I have always thought of krausening as the practice of adding actively fermenting wort to a batch that is nearly at terminal gravity. Typically on the way to the lagering tank or in the case of Weiss beer to carbonate in the bottle.

This is a very common practice in German breweries that don’t spund or ferment lagers in open fermenters. The benefits are numerous and it is a key process step in lager brewing.

Again, this is as I understand it.