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Author Topic: Entries for NHC  (Read 7313 times)

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2022, 09:44:22 am »
They would be better off if the entries were more restricted. How in the world can you accurately judge 146 beers in one category? You can't do it and be fair to all of the entrants. At least not with the logistics in place. And the imposed time constraints, based on the feedback on other forums.

And why do they combine so many sub-categories? This is a problem with many of the competitions. Putting a German Pils against a New Zealand Pils is like comparing oil and water.

Further restrict the category entrants, and do not combine beers that are worlds apart.
I strongly encourage any brewer to become a BJCP-certified judge and participate in competition judging and/or organizing.  It might change your perspective about lots of things.  I know that it did for me. 

I do think that it is possible to separate judging/ranking of entries from the process of providing feedback that is clear and useful to the brewer.  As Denny mentioned, both entrants and competition managers should be clear about what the goals are- ranking of beers, providing good feedback, or both.
There is a homebrew competition that does this (or used to) called Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing - MCAB

Looks like they might be another COVID victim.

https://www.masterhomebrewer.org/

And this:

https://www.worldcupofbeer.com/competition-details/
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:46:44 am by Bel Air Brewing »

Online denny

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2022, 10:03:02 am »
They would be better off if the entries were more restricted. How in the world can you accurately judge 146 beers in one category? You can't do it and be fair to all of the entrants. At least not with the logistics in place. And the imposed time constraints, based on the feedback on other forums.

And why do they combine so many sub-categories? This is a problem with many of the competitions. Putting a German Pils against a New Zealand Pils is like comparing oil and water.

Further restrict the category entrants, and do not combine beers that are worlds apart.
I strongly encourage any brewer to become a BJCP-certified judge and participate in competition judging and/or organizing.  It might change your perspective about lots of things.  I know that it did for me. 

I do think that it is possible to separate judging/ranking of entries from the process of providing feedback that is clear and useful to the brewer.  As Denny mentioned, both entrants and competition managers should be clear about what the goals are- ranking of beers, providing good feedback, or both.
There is a homebrew competition that does this (or used to) called Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing - MCAB

Looks like they might be another COVID victim.

https://www.masterhomebrewer.org/

And this:

https://www.worldcupofbeer.com/competition-details/

IIRC, they were long gone before Covid.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2022, 05:10:26 am »
So...we had a round table beer review yesterday. The taste panel was made up of experienced brewers (3), and experienced beer judges (2), and one professional brewer.

While I was there as a participant, my involvement was as a neutral bystander, just there to observe. It is difficult to judge your own beer is what many tell me!

We had bottled an extra beer of each entry, just for this purpose.

What was most impressive was the carbonation was spot on. This is always a big concern when bottling beer.

At this stage, it makes no difference as we cannot correct any errors made at the NHC.

Both of the experienced beer judges (one of which was a professional brewer) disagreed on most counts with the results from the NHC.

There was only one comment that was agreed with, my Helles being slightly bitter. My example had a moderate hop bitterness, which supports the malty palate. But this is right out of the BJCP Style Guide.

The conclusion was the NHC judges, being pressured to expedite the process, were simply hastily eliminating beers.

Certainly this was the case at the NHC. Many otherwise quality beers were overlooked in the quest for meeting time constraints.

As such, we will never enter this comp again. This is not a complaint on my part, simply a statement of fact based on independent feedback yesterday.

On a related side note, how many of those judges have actually been to North Germany, to sample a genuine classic Pils, or to Bavaria, to have a Munich Helles on draft?

The above is posted simply for others who may have been in the same boat we were in. My competition participation will be very limited going forward. Like a friend said, it's time to brew beer that we like, not what we think the judges will like!

Online denny

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2022, 08:08:58 am »
I would say that you should judge at NHC before you jump to conclusions about how it works.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2022, 08:17:44 am »
It is always hard to accept that there may have been better beers on the table. I tell myself I need to up my game.
Jeff Rankert
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Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline jeffy

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #80 on: July 26, 2022, 08:38:04 am »
It is always hard to accept that there may have been better beers on the table. I tell myself I need to up my game.
This ^^^^
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2022, 09:35:35 am »
It is always hard to accept that there may have been better beers on the table. I tell myself I need to up my game.

No, we fully accept that might have been better beer there. No question.

I find it interesting that the taste panel who sampled my entries this week disagreed with the BJCP judges, on all but one account. And that is the main point being made.

My goal is to make better beer. And I am doing that right now!

Online denny

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2022, 09:36:43 am »
It is always hard to accept that there may have been better beers on the table. I tell myself I need to up my game.

No, we fully accept that might have been better beer there. No question.

I find it interesting that the taste panel who sampled my entries this week disagreed with the BJCP judges, on all but one account. And that is the main point being made.

My goal is to make better beer. And I am doing that right now!

But just because they disagreed, does that necessarily mean they were more correct?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2022, 09:55:14 am »
It is always hard to accept that there may have been better beers on the table. I tell myself I need to up my game.

No, we fully accept that might have been better beer there. No question.

I find it interesting that the taste panel who sampled my entries this week disagreed with the BJCP judges, on all but one account. And that is the main point being made.

My goal is to make better beer. And I am doing that right now!

But just because they disagreed, does that necessarily mean they were more correct?

They were most certainly more correct...at least on the samples we had saved.

Two comments that were way off, on the color of the Festbier. They said it was too dark, and showed that as a flaw. Even comparing to a Marzen. That is total horse manure.

Another incorrect comment was on a "cardboard" flavor. One other was "under attenuated". Not correct at all. At least not in the bottles we had here.

One comment was the Helles drank like a Pilsner. None of us agreed.

But that is what happens when you as a judge are pressured by time constraints, and rushing to evaluate beers.

I am not faulting any judge, because I know what they were up against. I am faulting the system.

Those that sampled the beers on the panel here are brutal in their judging. They have looked me in the eye, and told me in the past my beer was flawed, and not to enter it in a competition.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2022, 10:59:33 am »
One aspect to bear in mind when having friends or judges who know you judge beers known by them to be yours is that they are probably more likely to be favorable toward them (not saying that they would ignore a flaw that is readily perceptible), probably without even consciously thinking about it.   I am not saying your beers are anything less than stellar (I am sure that they must be given your numerous high scores at BB); I'm just pointing out a potential positive bias in the process you undertook for them to evaluate your beers.

As stated earlier - brew for you and your friends and don't worry about the competition brewing - whether you enter them or not.  And I am sure that you will not run out of people willing to taste them!
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2022, 11:17:52 am »
One aspect to bear in mind when having friends or judges who know you judge beers known by them to be yours is that they are probably more likely to be favorable toward them (not saying that they would ignore a flaw that is readily perceptible), probably without even consciously thinking about it.   I am not saying your beers are anything less than stellar (I am sure that they must be given your numerous high scores at BB); I'm just pointing out a potential positive bias in the process you undertook for them to evaluate your beers.

As stated earlier - brew for you and your friends and don't worry about the competition brewing - whether you enter them or not.  And I am sure that you will not run out of people willing to taste them!

What you say certainly makes sense! The experienced beer judges (Husband & Wife team) are from Austin, Texas. They were very active in the beer scene there, taking part in many brewing comps and volunteering as stewards, plus judging. Dave has many, many medals for his beers!

They were both members of a large brew club there also. And Dave was a brewer at Community Brewing, in Austin.

Honestly, their objectivity does not get lost regarding tasting my beers. They are in their 40's, and have a much keener palate than I do. Being in my 60's, my taste buds have lost some ability to perceive some things.

I have told them both to be honest, and forget we know each other. The best friend is one who will tell you when your beer is good, and who will tell you when it's not good. And they have told me when my beer was not good!!! Point blank, to my face. With all the grace of a sledgehammer!

Both Dave and his wife (and the rest of us) went over the remarks, while tasting the beer. The only one they agreed with (slightly) was my Helles did have an underlying hop bitterness. But it was not "Pilsner like" at all.

It's not a big deal. It's beer, after all. But I do take it seriously. Just like I took flying a 777 seriously.

Correction: The judges were correct on my Festbier...it is an SRM 9. The BJCP top limit is 7.

edit: Full disclosure...I was deeply disappointed with the results. The Munich Helles was one of my best beers, and was spot on. The German Pils was brewed specifically for this comp, and was a classic example. I pushed the IBU's to the edge of the envelope on this one.
My Festbier was not great, and we did not expect it to do well.
All of our entries were "one & done".
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 12:25:03 pm by Bel Air Brewing »

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2022, 10:25:48 am »
And Dave was a brewer at Community Brewing, in Austin.

I thought Community only brewed out of their Dallas location? I know they sell in the Austin market but didn't realize they had a facility down there, too.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline Cliffs

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2022, 11:18:11 am »
It is always hard to accept that there may have been better beers on the table. I tell myself I need to up my game.

No, we fully accept that might have been better beer there. No question.

I find it interesting that the taste panel who sampled my entries this week disagreed with the BJCP judges, on all but one account. And that is the main point being made.

My goal is to make better beer. And I am doing that right now!

But just because they disagreed, does that necessarily mean they were more correct?

They were most certainly more correct...at least on the samples we had saved.

Two comments that were way off, on the color of the Festbier. They said it was too dark, and showed that as a flaw. Even comparing to a Marzen. That is total horse manure.

Another incorrect comment was on a "cardboard" flavor. One other was "under attenuated". Not correct at all. At least not in the bottles we had here.

One comment was the Helles drank like a Pilsner. None of us agreed.

But that is what happens when you as a judge are pressured by time constraints, and rushing to evaluate beers.

I am not faulting any judge, because I know what they were up against. I am faulting the system.

Those that sampled the beers on the panel here are brutal in their judging. They have looked me in the eye, and told me in the past my beer was flawed, and not to enter it in a competition.
love ya bud but....
there's so many logical fallacy's and thinking errors in this post I really don't know where to begin.

Offline Wilbur

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2022, 12:21:44 pm »
On a related side note, how many of those judges have actually been to North Germany, to sample a genuine classic Pils, or to Bavaria, to have a Munich Helles on draft?

If you think judging is rushed now, just wait until they start checking judges passports.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Entries for NHC
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2022, 01:11:47 pm »
I am getting more feedback, from BJCP judges.

The common theme is the event is simply too large as it is now. The result is the judging was rushed, and suffered.

As stated, the judges are not to blame. It is the structure of the event. I hope the AHA will address the issues at some point.