[Megary]

That’s correct. Transferring to a carboy for secondary is rarely used anymore. I apologize for muddying the water earlier concerning my secondary process. Just a thought that there are ways and means to do secondary. …just not open transfer to a carboy.

Some say O2 is bad throughout the entire process: hot and cold side. Some disagree with the hot side. …but there is no disagreement on the cold side: keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.

Also, please don’t use a carboy. Ever. There are only two types: a carboy that has broken and one that will break. Think: flying shards of glass shrapnel, 911, emergency room, and at the very least a huge mess to clean up and an angry significant other.



*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

At the risk of a huge derailment, I'll disagree that there is no disagreement on the cold side.   

I'm not arguing that cold-side oxidation isn't a thing.  It certainly is.  But I do think there is an argument over exactly how far one must go to avoid it, what the real-life repercussions are, how long it takes to show itself, how it affects different beer styles, etc.

My low-oxygen measures are rudimentary at best.  I'm sure many would say they really aren't measures at all.  Apparently, that's ok because I am really enjoying this hobby.

[BrewBama]

I stand corrected (again).

[tommymorris]

To me transferring to a secondary is extra work for no benefit. There is benefit in BrewBama’s secondary, but I don’t think the practice of using a secondary to limit trub in the bottle or keg or to avoid yeast autolysis is actually helpful.

[Megary]

I stand corrected (again).

 

[BrewBama]

…what the real-life repercussions are, how long it takes to show itself, how it affects different beer styles, etc.

May I recommend an article?

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/638956a4d9fec/Bamforth%20flavour%20stability%20BDI%20June%202021.pdf

[tommymorris]

…what the real-life repercussions are, how long it takes to show itself, how it affects different beer styles, etc.

May I recommend an article?

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/638956a4d9fec/Bamforth%20flavour%20stability%20BDI%20June%202021.pdf

To me that article reinforces Megary’s point. Keeping the beer cold and drinking it fast are the two most impactful things a brewer can do to maximize flavor stability. It’s not clear from the article that other suggestions have significant impact if you don’t age the beer at warm temperatures.

[BrewBama]

To me that article reinforces Megary’s point. Keeping the beer cold and drinking it fast are the two most impactful things a brewer can do to maximize flavor stability. It’s not clear from the article that other suggestions have significant impact if you don’t age the beer at warm temperatures.

I believe it says this (I added the dark):

… keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.
…

[tommymorris]

To me that article reinforces Megary’s point. Keeping the beer cold and drinking it fast are the two most impactful things a brewer can do to maximize flavor stability. It’s not clear from the article that other suggestions have significant impact if you don’t age the beer at warm temperatures.

I believe it says this (I added the dark):

… keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.
…

Indeed. But, I regularly open the fermenter to use a hydrometer, add dry hops by opening the keg to drop them in, I usually do non-closed transfers when kegging, and I purge kegs by filling them with CO2 and pulling the pressure relief tab 3 times. None of that ever seems to damage my beer.

I keep the beer cold and drink it fast.

I like my beer and this hobby.

PS. I was going to write that I take efforts to minimize cold side O2 pickup. But, after reading my above comments I can’t say that with a straight face

[BrewBama]

Can’t argue with that. I drank our beers side-by-side and didn’t notice a difference either.

Nevertheless he does say, “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.”

[Megary]

…what the real-life repercussions are, how long it takes to show itself, how it affects different beer styles, etc.

May I recommend an article?

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/638956a4d9fec/Bamforth%20flavour%20stability%20BDI%20June%202021.pdf

Thanks for that.  The author takes a very level-headed approach, imo.

I realize this article was not directed at homebrewers specifically, but...

From the article:
It will depend on the beer (and no two beers age in the same way) but a general guide for flavour life is three months at 20°C, one month at 30*C (c.f. the accelerated ageing regime referred to earlier), 10 days at 40*C, 3-4 days at 50°C, and one day at 60*C (again, see earlier).
 However, at 10*C, it would be nine months – and an even longer time at refrigerator temperatures. Of course, it is an approximation – but keeping the beer cold is a far better bet for keeping the product fresh than is all the tinkering the brewer can do with malts and brewhouse oxidation.

I suppose this is what I was getting at.  It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer.  But I can't wrap my head around at what level, for how long, at what storage temperature, for what beer style, etc. etc.  Still too many variables for a "one process fits all" solution.  Sure, every little step helps, but it seems to me that if I keg and refrigerate my beer right after fermentation and drink the beer in a max of 4-5 weeks, then I only need to use "common-sense protocols for avoiding obvious air ingress".

This isn't to say that my beers aren't oxidizing, just that I can't detect any obvious off-flavors in this time frame.  Or maybe I'm just kidding myself?   

[denny]

…what the real-life repercussions are, how long it takes to show itself, how it affects different beer styles, etc.

May I recommend an article?

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/638956a4d9fec/Bamforth%20flavour%20stability%20BDI%20June%202021.pdf

Thanks for that.  The author takes a very level-headed approach, imo.

I realize this article was not directed at homebrewers specifically, but...

From the article:
It will depend on the beer (and no two beers age in the same way) but a general guide for flavour life is three months at 20°C, one month at 30*C (c.f. the accelerated ageing regime referred to earlier), 10 days at 40*C, 3-4 days at 50°C, and one day at 60*C (again, see earlier).
 However, at 10*C, it would be nine months – and an even longer time at refrigerator temperatures. Of course, it is an approximation – but keeping the beer cold is a far better bet for keeping the product fresh than is all the tinkering the brewer can do with malts and brewhouse oxidation.

I suppose this is what I was getting at.  It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer.  But I can't wrap my head around at what level, for how long, at what storage temperature, for what beer style, etc. etc.  Still too many variables for a "one process fits all" solution.  Sure, every little step helps, but it seems to me that if I keg and refrigerate my beer right after fermentation and drink the beer in a max of 4-5 weeks, then I only need to use "common-sense protocols for avoiding obvious air ingress".

This isn't to say that my beers aren't oxidizing, just that I can't detect any obvious off-flavors in this time frame.  Or maybe I'm just kidding myself?   

No, I don't think  you're kidding yourself. I feel the same way. I have had a LOT of training and judging experience, so I'm pretty aware of flavors when I try a beer. If my beers were being negatively affected by something like opening the fermenter momemtarily to dry hop, im pretty sure Id recognize it. I trust my own experience, not someone telling me im doing something wrong. Sounds like you do, too.

[Richard]

...
Also, please don’t use a carboy. Ever. There are only two types: a carboy that has broken and one that will break. Think: flying shards of glass shrapnel, 911, emergency room, and at the very least a huge mess to clean up and an angry significant other.
...

Carboy doesn't necessarily mean glass. I agree that nobody should ever use a glass one these days, but the PET ones are also called carboys. I use a Fermonster PET carboy (https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermonster-carboy-7-gal.html) and am very happy with it.

[Cliffs]

That’s correct. Transferring to a carboy for secondary is rarely used anymore. I apologize for muddying the water earlier concerning my secondary process. Just a thought that there are ways and means to do secondary. …just not open transfer to a carboy.

Some say O2 is bad throughout the entire process: hot and cold side. Some disagree with the hot side. …but there is no disagreement on the cold side: keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.

Also, please don’t use a carboy. Ever. There are only two types: a carboy that has broken and one that will break. Think: flying shards of glass shrapnel, 911, emergency room, and at the very least a huge mess to clean up and an angry significant other.



*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

English cask ale absolutely invites O2 and warmer than normal temps. I've had the chance of tasting cask ale of various days of 02 exposure, I enjoyed the 4 and 5 day old casks the best.

[Slowbrew]

That’s correct. Transferring to a carboy for secondary is rarely used anymore. I apologize for muddying the water earlier concerning my secondary process. Just a thought that there are ways and means to do secondary. …just not open transfer to a carboy.

Some say O2 is bad throughout the entire process: hot and cold side. Some disagree with the hot side. …but there is no disagreement on the cold side: keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.

Also, please don’t use a carboy. Ever. There are only two types: a carboy that has broken and one that will break. Think: flying shards of glass shrapnel, 911, emergency room, and at the very least a huge mess to clean up and an angry significant other.



*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

English cask ale absolutely invites O2 and warmer than normal temps. I've had the chance of tasting cask ale of various days of 02 exposure, I enjoyed the 4 and 5 day old casks the best.

This is probably just me being nit-picky this morning but the term "cold side" has always meant Pre-boil to me.  Things like milling, mashing, sparging.
Hot Side is anything after the boil and post fermentation was packaging and storage.  Please correct me if I've understood those terms incorrectly for the past 25 years.

Thanks!

Paul

[BrewBama]

My apologies to the OP for the hijack

I guess this was the point I *thought* I was making:

It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer.

(Other than semantics, I guess I don’t understand what I said was so much different)

Anyway….

Above all else: I think every brewer should do what suits their experience, personality, and goals.

They say when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. At the risk of digging this hole deeper:

In my mind if (A) is true: “It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer”, and (B) is true: allowing O2 and heat to contact finished beer *could* be causes of oxidation, then(C) “keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.” 

Other than inadvertently omitting “consume fresh” and adding ‘keep dark’, unless (A) or (B) is false, (C) doesn’t *seem* like such a controversial conclusion to me.

I guess that’s just the way I think.

Believe me: I have a very low PITA tolerance. I have tried many techniques and processes.  I have discarded some and kept some. These steps fall into the “just too easy” column for me not to do them.

I recommend them to others but I’m not saying you can’t brew beer if you don’t do these things. Your call (please see disclaimer below).

Carboy doesn't necessarily mean glass.

Good point. I was referring to glass in my comment

English cask ale absolutely invites O2 and warmer than normal temps.

Of course. Dr Bamforth is English, so he allows for that by saying:

From the article:
It will depend on the beer (and no two beers age in the same way) …

He uses the branded place mat experiment and the potential disappointment for a drinker traveling to the origin of his favorite beer to illustrate how stale beer can be desirable over fresh beer.

… the term "cold side" has always meant Pre-boil to me.  …

I was using the term ‘cold side’ to indicate post boil. Fermentation, packaging, serving, etc. would be included in what I termed ‘cold side’. I may have misused the term.

*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV