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Author Topic: Yeast action  (Read 977 times)

Online ynotbrusum

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2022, 07:40:33 am »
It is so often confusion arises when  using a term that can be taken more than one way…cold side is one of those, I guess.  I always thought of the brew day process as pre-boil steps, boil, then post-boil.  Hot side was mashing and boiling to me and anything post boil was cold-side, especially post-ferment packaging.  Extra sanitation care is implied on the post-boil cold side - which is not required as much in the pre-boil (albeit cold side in a sense).
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Offline neuse

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2022, 08:55:54 am »
"This is probably just me being nit-picky this morning but the term "cold side" has always meant Pre-boil to me.  Things like milling, mashing, sparging.
Hot Side is anything after the boil and post fermentation was packaging and storage.  Please correct me if I've understood those terms incorrectly for the past 25 years."
A worthwhile question, and we would all benefit by using the same definition. If many of us post our understanding, we might help settle it. I'll throw out that my definition is the same as BrewBama's: "I was using the term ‘cold side’ to indicate post boil. Fermentation, packaging, serving, etc…. Would be included in what I termed ‘cold side’."

Offline denny

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2022, 09:05:28 am »
That’s correct. Transferring to a carboy for secondary is rarely used anymore. I apologize for muddying the water earlier concerning my secondary process. Just a thought that there are ways and means to do secondary. …just not open transfer to a carboy.

Some say O2 is bad throughout the entire process: hot and cold side. Some disagree with the hot side. …but there is no disagreement on the cold side: keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.

Also, please don’t use a carboy. Ever. There are only two types: a carboy that has broken and one that will break. Think: flying shards of glass shrapnel, 911, emergency room, and at the very least a huge mess to clean up and an angry significant other.



*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

English cask ale absolutely invites O2 and warmer than normal temps. I've had the chance of tasting cask ale of various days of 02 exposure, I enjoyed the 4 and 5 day old casks the best.

This is probably just me being nit-picky this morning but the term "cold side" has always meant Pre-boil to me.  Things like milling, mashing, sparging.
Hot Side is anything after the boil and post fermentation was packaging and storage.  Please correct me if I've understood those terms incorrectly for the past 25 years.

Thanks!

Paul

I think your definition of cold side is different than the norm
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Offline Megary

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2022, 11:12:35 am »
My apologies to the OP for the hijack

I guess this was the point I *thought* I was making:

It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer.

(Other than semantics, I guess I don’t understand what I said was so much different)

Anyway….

Above all else: I think every brewer should do what suits their experience, personality, and goals.

They say when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. At the risk of digging this hole deeper:

In my mind if (A) is true: “It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer”, and (B) is true: allowing O2 and heat to contact finished beer *could* be causes of oxidation, then(C) “keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.” 

Other than inadvertently omitting “consume fresh” and adding ‘keep dark’, unless (A) or (B) is false, (C) doesn’t *seem* like such a controversial conclusion to me.

I guess that’s just the way I think.

Believe me: I have a very low PITA tolerance. I have tried many techniques and processes.  I have discarded some and kept some. These steps fall into the “just too easy” column for me not to do them.

I recommend them to others but I’m not saying you can’t brew beer if you don’t do these things. Your call (please see disclaimer below).

Carboy doesn't necessarily mean glass.

Good point. I was referring to glass in my comment

English cask ale absolutely invites O2 and warmer than normal temps.

Of course. Dr Bamforth is English, so he allows for that by saying:


From the article:
It will depend on the beer (and no two beers age in the same way) …


He uses the branded place mat experiment and the potential disappointment for a drinker traveling to the origin of his favorite beer to illustrate how stale beer can be desirable over fresh beer.

… the term "cold side" has always meant Pre-boil to me.  …

I was using the term ‘cold side’ to indicate post boil. Fermentation, packaging, serving, etc. would be included in what I termed ‘cold side’. I may have misused the term.

*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

I think we are on the same page.  My only hang-up with cold-side oxidation is just how far homebrewers need to go to avoid it.  And that answer won’t be the same for everyone. That’s all.

And I’m quite certain it was me that wrecked this thread, not you!   ;D

Cheers!

Online tommymorris

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Yeast action
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2022, 04:55:35 pm »
In my mind if (A) is true: “It is undeniable that oxidation can ruin a beer”, and (B) is true: allowing O2 and heat to contact finished beer *could* be causes of oxidation, then(C) “keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.” 

Other than inadvertently omitting “consume fresh” and adding ‘keep dark’, unless (A) or (B) is false, (C) doesn’t *seem* like such a controversial conclusion to me.

I guess that’s just the way I think.

Believe me: I have a very low PITA tolerance. I have tried many techniques and processes.  I have discarded some and kept some. These steps fall into the “just too easy” column for me not to do them.
I agree with your A and B. I take issue with C.  How far must I go to reduce O2 exposure? I do a lot less than others espouse and my beer tastes fine.

I understand your not telling us what to do. I also understand everyone’s brewery is different and certain steps are easier for some than others just because of how they brew.

I originally just wanted to say I read the article you posted and I thought it actually justified Megary’s point.  There was a lot in the article about aging at room temperature to accelerate oxidation and staling.  I took from that, and the authors prime suggestion to keep the beer cold, that if you drink the beer fast the oxidation impact would be minimal. That seemed to align with  Megary’s question on how much oxidation is too much.

I also concluded from reading the article that I am not crazy. I’m not the best at minimizing O2 exposure, but, I keep my beer cold and drink it fast. My beer tastes fine. So, I can continue skipping certain of the commonly suggested O2 reduction steps.

PS. I certainly wasn’t attacking you. I was just trying to have healthy conversation.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 05:06:05 pm by tommymorris »

Online BrewBama

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Yeast action
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2022, 06:12:19 pm »
I don’t feel attacked.

I wrote and re-wrote my response, editing it carefully to remove negativity, trying to keep it about me and my reasoning.

Questions cause me to review my processes to determine what, if anything, I might consider changing.  A question about my process is what prompted me to ask Dr Bamforth a question. He sent me that article as his reply. I learned a ton from it.

It’s all good.  I have found it a healthy discussion.

How far must I go to reduce O2 exposure?

I can tell you I’ve settled on trying to  “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.” (Bamforth).

I don’t have state-of-the-art packaging equipment Bamforth suggests. Using closed transfer to a CO2 purged keg with extract remaining so the last 1-2% of attenuation is completed in the keg is my effort to limit O2 in final packaging. (Annemüller) After all, draining a fermenter thru the lid or thru the QD post takes the same amount of time and effort so I figured why not. It’s easy enough and I save on bottled CO2.

Bamforth also discusses metal ions, bottom-filling of vessels, using deaerated water for slurries, limit transfers, etc. as less important but additional steps that can be taken.

I also incorporate information I received from Joe Formanek concerning a combination of oxygen reduction and ion removal as what he termed in his note “the best case scenario”. He recommended Brewtan B to bind up Fenton-like metals and prevents the formation of superoxides in solution, thereby reducing the oxidation potential of any dissolved oxygen in the wort.

That’s why I use distilled or RO water (to reduce ions), deaerate my water (using bread yeast and table sugar), add Brewtan B (settles trüb fast to make clear beer), use no sparge (it’s faster and easier), and underlet my mash (so I don’t have to lift 7+ gallons of hot water and pour it in a MLT). These were easy, data based, common sense techniques — most with a dual purpose in mind.

I don’t use NaMeta because I’ve had bad experiences with it. It crossed the PITA line. I do use Ascorbic Acid. Ascorbic acid is a proven antioxidant, though slightly less effective in solution at scavenging oxygen than NaMeta. However, enzymes exist within the malt that increase the effectiveness of AA as an oxygen scavenger. The guys at Genus Brewing use 3-5 grams Ascorbic Acid to their mash to fend off oxidation. 1 tsp. Easy enough. But whether any of that matters or not, most importantly, in combination with Calcium I add that reacts with phosphates in the grain husks to release phytic acid which lowers the mash pH naturally, it’s a weak acid that gets my mash pH in my desired range (5.2-5.4).

These things are not an issue for me. I find them easily accomplished whether they make a difference or not. …but these things may be in the ‘not worth the trouble’ category for someone else if they cannot detect a distinct difference. I’m ok with that.  I looked at the data and the effort required to implement these actions and decided on my own this was the direction I would take.  I feel good brewing this way.

I do a lot less than others espouse and my beer tastes fine.

Some would probably say I don’t go far enough. Others would probably say I’ve gone too far.  I actually have no idea what my O2 levels are.  …and I don’t really plan to find out.  I do what I can without crossing my PITA line and I like the way things are going. I keep the beer cold and the pipeline moving (drink fresh).

 …and I agree: Your beer does taste fine.  In fact, I think we should brew the same recipe and do our taste test again. Not necessarily to determine who’s beer or process is better, but because I thought it was fun to do. I enjoyed it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 07:00:19 am by BrewBama »

Online Slowbrew

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2022, 05:31:36 am »
That’s correct. Transferring to a carboy for secondary is rarely used anymore. I apologize for muddying the water earlier concerning my secondary process. Just a thought that there are ways and means to do secondary. …just not open transfer to a carboy.

Some say O2 is bad throughout the entire process: hot and cold side. Some disagree with the hot side. …but there is no disagreement on the cold side: keeping finished beer away from O2 pickup, cold, and dark is the best thing for it.

Also, please don’t use a carboy. Ever. There are only two types: a carboy that has broken and one that will break. Think: flying shards of glass shrapnel, 911, emergency room, and at the very least a huge mess to clean up and an angry significant other.



*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

English cask ale absolutely invites O2 and warmer than normal temps. I've had the chance of tasting cask ale of various days of 02 exposure, I enjoyed the 4 and 5 day old casks the best.

This is probably just me being nit-picky this morning but the term "cold side" has always meant Pre-boil to me.  Things like milling, mashing, sparging.
Hot Side is anything after the boil and post fermentation was packaging and storage.  Please correct me if I've understood those terms incorrectly for the past 25 years.

Thanks!

Paul

I think your definition of cold side is different than the norm

Entirely likely I hadn't had enough coffee yet yesterday when I typed this.  Thanks for the correction.

Paul
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Offline Megary

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2022, 07:36:41 am »


 I do what I can without crossing my PITA line and I like the way things are going. I keep the beer cold and the pipeline moving (drink fresh).


+1

There it is, in a nutshell.

Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Yeast action
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2022, 02:03:21 am »


 I do what I can without crossing my PITA line and I like the way things are going. I keep the beer cold and the pipeline moving (drink fresh).


+1

There it is, in a nutshell.

+2

Every time I plan to go "Bigger & Better" I pause and think it through.
Good way to describe it, PITA line, which was crossed many times,
thankfully only in my mind.  I do slowly test new and improve current procedures.
Keeping relatively small allows me to brew more often, gain experience
frequently, much less to clean, maintain, and a constant pipeline of different
tasting brews.  Brewing 4.5 to 5 gallons is the max capable without new equipment.
I think I might be better off staying small and low tech, and content with what is still enjoyable.

Cheers   
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 02:09:32 am by Fire Rooster »