[Drewch]

Assuming you get the pH below 4.5, what's the minimum ABV you'd need to rely on the alcohol's preservative quality?

[denny]

Assuming you get the pH below 4.5, what's the minimum ABV you'd need to rely on the alcohol's preservative quality?

I don't know, but these guys might....https://ultralowbrewing.com/

[BrewBama]

I’m not sure. 

In the U.S., low-alcohol beer is defined by having an ABV of less than 2.5%.  I’ve tried my attempt in this category but I think I’m going to overshoot and hit ~3%. My plan is to keep it cold and drink quickly.

Beers with less than 0.5% ABV can be labeled as "non-alcoholic".

[erockrph]

Even high strength beer and wine do not have enough ABV% to prevent microbial growth. There is likely a continuum of greater inhibition as ABV levels rise, but anything lower than 20% or so runs the risk of potential microbial growth (i.e., "Corked" wine, sour beer, etc.). There's a reason that schnapps and other liqueurs are bottled at ~40 proof, anything lower and you run the risk of mold growth.

[Drewch]

There is likely a continuum of greater inhibition as ABV levels rise, but anything lower than 20% or so runs the risk of potential microbial growth (i.e., "Corked" wine, sour beer, etc.).

In interviews, NA beer malt beverage producers frequently talk about having to do all the food safety stuff that normal beer producers don't have to. 

And states with "cottage" licenses for food production generally rely on pH as the determining factor.  So you can sell your jams and jellies (fruit being generally low pH) at the farmers market but not typically, say, potted meat.

So I was wondering if there was a consensus on where the tipping point was between a normal 4ish % beer and a ≤0.5% non-beer (assuming they ask finish or are adjusted to the low 4s pH) was.

I haven't found one yet.

[denny]

FWIW, I know Athletic uses lactic acid in the finished beer to reduce pH to a safe range.

[erockrph]

FWIW, I know Athletic uses lactic acid in the finished beer to reduce pH to a safe range.

This makes sense. Depending on how it's produced, a NA beer might not to have enough fermentation activity to drive the pH low enough. I think canned food needs to be at 4.6 or lower, ao I'm guessing that this is the same number for NA beer as well.

[hopfenundmalz]

FWIW, I know Athletic uses lactic acid in the finished beer to reduce pH to a safe range.

This makes sense. Depending on how it's produced, a NA beer might not to have enough fermentation activity to drive the pH low enough. I think canned food needs to be at 4.6 or lower, ao I'm guessing that this is the same number for NA beer as well.

A pH of 4.6 or lower is important as it supresses Botulism spores from producing the toxin.

[BrewBama]

FWIW, I know Athletic uses lactic acid in the finished beer to reduce pH to a safe range.

This makes sense. Depending on how it's produced, a NA beer might not to have enough fermentation activity to drive the pH low enough. I think canned food needs to be at 4.6 or lower, ao I'm guessing that this is the same number for NA beer as well.

A pH of 4.6 or lower is important as it supresses Botulism spores from producing the toxin.

+1.  4.6 pH/adding lactic acid is highlighted in this video.  I took a sample of my recent low ABV attempt and got 4.4 pH in the finished beer.

https://youtu.be/07h9GJox220

[erockrph]

FWIW, I know Athletic uses lactic acid in the finished beer to reduce pH to a safe range.

This makes sense. Depending on how it's produced, a NA beer might not to have enough fermentation activity to drive the pH low enough. I think canned food needs to be at 4.6 or lower, ao I'm guessing that this is the same number for NA beer as well.

A pH of 4.6 or lower is important as it supresses Botulism spores from producing the toxin.

+1.  4.6 pH/adding lactic acid is highlighted in this video.  I took a sample of my recent low ABV attempt and got 4.4 pH in the finished beer.

https://youtu.be/07h9GJox220

Out of curiosity, do you have any data points for the pH prior to fermentation (mash, pre-boil, ending kettle, etc), along with the OG and FG? I'm wondering if the amount of pH drop during fermentation correlates with the amount of change in gravity, or whether it is similar in small beers vs big beers.

[BrewBama]

I measured a 5.16 pH sample after the nonezymatic mash but before the ‘high mash’. The OG was 1.027 after the boil and FG was 1.009. I failed to take a post boil pH reading.

[erockrph]

I measured a 5.16 pH sample after the nonezymatic mash but before the ‘high mash’. The OG was 1.027 after the boil and FG was 1.009. I failed to take a post boil pH reading.

Interesting. I know it's only a single data point, but it seems to fall in line with what I'd expect from a beer with double that OG.

[Drewch]

...A pH of 4.6 or lower is important as it suppresses Botulism...

Yeah, what I've found so far suggests that it's really the pH drop during fermentation that is protective %u2014 the drop from 4-6% ABV to 2-3% ABV isn't what's going to make the difference. (Cf. the comment above about liqueurs generally being at least 20% ABV.)

I mean, kombucha has little enough alcohol to be considered non-alcoholic, and it's pretty shelf-stable from the low pH.  Likewise naturally fermented pickles, hot sauces, etc.

Thus, it seems the risk in NA non-beer comes from the abbreviated fermentation not giving the yeast enough time/food to finish adjusting the pH. Not actually from the lower alcohol level.

[hopfenundmalz]

...A pH of 4.6 or lower is important as it suppresses Botulism...

Yeah, what I've found so far suggests that it's really the pH drop during fermentation that is protective %u2014 the drop from 4-6% ABV to 2-3% ABV isn't what's going to make the difference. (Cf. the comment above about liqueurs generally being at least 20% ABV.)

I mean, kombucha has little enough alcohol to be considered non-alcoholic, and it's pretty shelf-stable from the low pH.  Likewise naturally fermented pickles, hot sauces, etc.

Thus, it seems the risk in NA non-beer comes from the abbreviated fermentation not giving the yeast enough time/food to finish adjusting the pH. Not actually from the lower alcohol level.

My wife started making pickled vegetables during the pandemic. She would ask early on where is the pH meter. Now she knows where to find it.

[kramerog]

Assuming you get the pH below 4.5, what's the minimum ABV you'd need to rely on the alcohol's preservative quality?

For food safety, a ph below 4.5 and lack of oxygen is enough for food safety in beer.

Food safe is not the same as taste stable.  While 8% alcohol is enough to suppress lactobacillus activity generally, there are lactobacillus specific to sake that can spoil sake at 15+%. Goose Island's Bourbon County Stout (not sure what the ABV was, but safe to say it was over 10%) was recalled some years ago due to a Brett infection.