[denny]

So, I'm gonna be lifting a grain basket, then sparging. It seems like those would negate the initial effort. Anybody deaerate the water, but then sparge in a AIO?

You can use antioxidants in the mash to help negate the points of oxygen ingress that are difficult or impossible to avoid.  That said, if you are going to give low oxygen brewing a shot, then you will will want to employ techniques to minimize oxygen exposure such as utilizing a mash cap, not sparging, etc.

Nope, not interested in going there.  The water deaeration seemed easy. Not interested in going any further.

[hopfenundmalz]

From the link I posted above “Strictly speaking from an energy and ease standpoint the default 2g/gal YOS dosing is pretty hard to beat. Dose and wait 30 minutes (to 4 days!) and you are set. If you want to accelerate 2g/gal dosing, heat the kettle a bit.

If you want to cut back on yeast and sugar amount in the water, 1g/gal is a great alternative. You can wait a little longer (>1hr), or slightly heat the kettle to 35-40c (90-115F) and have very fast (<30 minute) results.”

I imagine lifting a basket/bag is not ideal. That’s why they use scavengers to address those issues.

Bamforth often cites a study that indicates some people prefer stale beer over fresh. Not sure if that’s style dependent or not.

According to what I've recall Jeff Rankert say, he's found it to work well for German styles and not so much for British.

So, I'm gonna be lifting a grain basket, then sparging. It seems like those would negate the initial effort. Anybody deaerate the water, but then sparge in a AIO?

The one British ale I did LODO on came out with a malt character more like a German Alt. Not bad, but not the beer I was expecting. Maybe I should try again?

Last fall I toured Theakstons in Masham. That brewery is all original Victorian equipment except for electric motors that replaced the steam engine. Hot side aeration everywhere. They are a real ale brewery, most everything goes out in casks. Old Peculier is taken off site for the bottling process. Old Peculier on cask in Yorkshire pubs was a great beer. In bottles in the US, not so good.

British beer in the US is not so good. It might have longer shelf life in bottles if they kept O2 out, but the fresh stuff in Casks might taste different.

Pale ale malt has had the LOX denatured at the higher kilning temperatures, so some of the hot side problems aren't as noticable. Beware a study that uses Maris Otter to compare LODO vs non LODO beers.

Isn't Alt non-LODO similar to British beers?

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

Uerige, yes, bottles are stale when they cross the throshold on the way out. You can find details of their process on the website.

 I'm not sure of the others. Zum Schlüssel put in a new brewhouse in 2018 that looked to be all SS, but i don't know their procedures. When we were there with friends the beers were not very good, then when the Sticke Warriors showed up for Sticke day, they pposted pictures of the new brewery that was just coming online. We got some duff beer as they were changing over, I think.

[denny]

Yeast and sugar.  I collect water and deaerate the night before brewday. It takes 20 min to reach zero and lasts 2+ days at zero DO. Heating to strike temp kills the yeast and further drives off DO.

Ref: https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/deoxygenation-revisited/

ive done this on 2 batches and not done it on 2 other batches this winter. after checking right now which ones, i think simply from my tasting impressions there is a chance this water deoxygenation might make better beer. i used some EEEC118 i think left kicking around in my fridge and a tbsp of sugar. i believe i will keep doing it becuase it takes so little effort and is part of my normal brewday -1 prep

I have been doing this for the last 12 batches now and I think maybe, possibly it helps make cleaner tasting, longer lasting beers. For 15 gallons of strike water I use 28 grams of sugar and a package of Fleischman yeast the evening before brew day. I also underlet the mash, stir minimally and set the sparge arm below the surface of the mash.  It's easy for my system.

Do you do any other low oxygen procedures?

[ynotbrusum]

Every once in a while, I will do a LODO batch, but only with German styles.  I used to do every batch as a LODO brew, at first using the Tri-blend of Ascorbic Acid, Sodium or Potassium MBS and Brewtan B, then after the procedure evolved I went to using pre-boiled and cooled, underletted strike water, boiled and cooled sparge water (or full volume strike water), low impact boils, etc... I always wondered about the O2 ingress from removing the grain bag in AIO, removing the immersion chiller from the chilled strike and chilled sparge water, over-stirring the mash, recirculation mash or other points where air seemed to creep into the system.  I tried the YOS a few times, thinking maybe the yeast in the strike water would scavenge at least a bit of the O2 in the mash in, but then worried over the other steps in the brew day and the potential for ingress of O2 all the way around.  Eventually, I just migrated away from the LODO process as an every beer routine and just try to be as mindful of the reduction of O2 as I can be without getting paranoid. 

I definitely appreciate the steps that many go to make their beers stellar, but I allow myself the peace of mind even when I don't LODO a German style.

I am not trying to stir the pot - LODO makes absolute good sense, admittedly.  I have won awards brewing both ways, however.  Thankfully, my beers go relatively fast once put on tap.  I am nearly religious in my use of Brewtan B, so there are aspects that I retain from LODO that have improved things for me (or so I believe).  I hope that adds to the dialogue here.

[denny]

Every once in a while, I will do a LODO batch, but only with German styles.  I used to do every batch as a LODO brew, at first using the Tri-blend of Ascorbic Acid, Sodium or Potassium MBS and Brewtan B, then after the procedure evolved I went to using pre-boiled and cooled, underletted strike water, boiled and cooled sparge water (or full volume strike water), low impact boils, etc... I always wondered about the O2 ingress from removing the grain bag in AIO, removing the immersion chiller from the chilled strike and chilled sparge water, over-stirring the mash, recirculation mash or other points where air seemed to creep into the system.  I tried the YOS a few times, thinking maybe the yeast in the strike water would scavenge at least a bit of the O2 in the mash in, but then worried over the other steps in the brew day and the potential for ingress of O2 all the way around.  Eventually, I just migrated away from the LODO process as an every beer routine and just try to be as mindful of the reduction of O2 as I can be without getting paranoid. 

I definitely appreciate the steps that many go to make their beers stellar, but I allow myself the peace of mind even when I don't LODO a German style.

I am not trying to stir the pot - LODO makes absolute good sense, admittedly.  I have won awards brewing both ways, however.  Thankfully, my beers go relatively fast once put on tap.  I am nearly religious in my use of Brewtan B, so there are aspects that I retain from LODO that have improved things for me (or so I believe).  I hope that adds to the dialogue here.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I think we think of things the same way.

[jeffy]

Yeast and sugar.  I collect water and deaerate the night before brewday. It takes 20 min to reach zero and lasts 2+ days at zero DO. Heating to strike temp kills the yeast and further drives off DO.

Ref: https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/deoxygenation-revisited/

ive done this on 2 batches and not done it on 2 other batches this winter. after checking right now which ones, i think simply from my tasting impressions there is a chance this water deoxygenation might make better beer. i used some EEEC118 i think left kicking around in my fridge and a tbsp of sugar. i believe i will keep doing it becuase it takes so little effort and is part of my normal brewday -1 prep

I have been doing this for the last 12 batches now and I think maybe, possibly it helps make cleaner tasting, longer lasting beers. For 15 gallons of strike water I use 28 grams of sugar and a package of Fleischman yeast the evening before brew day. I also underlet the mash, stir minimally and set the sparge arm below the surface of the mash.  It's easy for my system.

Do you do any other low oxygen procedures?

I don’t add any other chemicals as most lodo people do.  I tried milling the grain damp, but it didn’t work too well for me. When I drain the mash off into the kettle, I fill the kettle at the very bottom without any splashing.
My opinion is that these things are easy to do and may have a good result.

[Richard]

So, I'm gonna be lifting a grain basket, then sparging. It seems like those would negate the initial effort. Anybody deaerate the water, but then sparge in a AIO?

You can use antioxidants in the mash to help negate the points of oxygen ingress that are difficult or impossible to avoid.  That said, if you are going to give low oxygen brewing a shot, then you will will want to employ techniques to minimize oxygen exposure such as utilizing a mash cap, not sparging, etc.

I have to add campden to eliminate chloramine, so I add a bit more than needed just for the chloramine neutralization to act as an antioxidant at the end of the mash. If I didn't deaerate the water then the campden would be used up scavenging the oxygen in the strike water and would not be available when I need it. By deaerating the water I preserve the antioxidants so I need less of them.

[BrewBama]

…
My opinion is that these things are easy to do and may have a good result.

Sounds like just about where I’ve landed. Though I do add 1 tsp Ascorbic Acid and 1/2 tsp Brewtan B. IOW, do the stuff that’s not a PITA.


*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

[denny]

…
My opinion is that these things are easy to do and may have a good result.

Sounds like just about where I’ve landed. Though I do add 1 tsp Ascorbic Acid and 1/2 tsp Brewtan B. IOW, do the stuff that’s not a PITA.


*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

Sensible approach.

[lupulus]

I am very happy that many fellow homebrewers decided to give low oxygen mashing a try.
The approach of doing at least the simple things is indeed sensible, and I am glad many are happy with the results.


"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

[denny]

I am very happy that many fellow homebrewers decided to give low oxygen mashing a try.
The approach of doing at least the simple things is indeed sensible, and I am glad many are happy with the results.


"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

My question is "is it enough to make a difference? "  I'll see

[erockrph]

I am very happy that many fellow homebrewers decided to give low oxygen mashing a try.
The approach of doing at least the simple things is indeed sensible, and I am glad many are happy with the results.

I get the sense that we're seeing a lot more homebrewers adopting parts of LODO mashing since others are reporting good results with a stepwise approach to implementation. If you can adopt the parts of the LODO mashing process that easily fit in your brewing methods and still see some benefits, then why not give it a try? I definitely got the vibe that it was pretty much an all-or-nothing thing when LODO was first starting to trickle out into the homebrew forums that I frequented, but recent reports (and my own experience) seem to say otherwise.

I for one have never tried deaerating my mash water, but yeast scavenging seems like a simple addition to my process. Since I'm hearing good results from others, it's a no-brainer to at least try it out on my next few brews.

[dbeechum]

If you can adopt the parts of the LODO mashing process that easily fit in your brewing methods and still see some benefits, then why not give it a try? I definitely got the vibe that it was pretty much an all-or-nothing thing when LODO was first starting to trickle out into the homebrew forums that I frequented, but recent reports (and my own experience) seem to say otherwise.

This is a good way to take things, I think. Of all the places to insist on absolutism, beer is a funny one given the endless ways that beer happens.

[Cliffs]

not sure if its considered a LODO thing or just a general beer thing, but spunding has been a game changer for me.

[mabrungard]

I can report that using a deaeration method other than SMB or KMB for your water batch is a good idea. Preboiling, yeast scavenging, and other methods means that you end up adding less of prophylactic protectors like ascorbic acid, SMB, or KMB.

When I calculated the stoichiometric requirements to remove the roughly 8 mg/l of oxygen that can be present in typical tap water, it ended up being the largest component when it came to calculating a SMB dose. If that's been taken out via one of those other methods, the amount of SMB need to provide that prophylactic function, falls markedly.

I've said this before, LODO is NOT suited for all styles.  But it does make a very substantial difference in beer styles that benefit from having a strong, unoxidized malt presentation. I don't find it useful for brewing styles that have oxidized malt as a hallmark. Barleywines, Old Ales, and many English styles just don't respond well to LODO.