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Author Topic: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)  (Read 3697 times)

Offline joshlaston

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2023, 06:35:23 pm »
Update. Hit FG today, tastes like straight butter. Moved to my cold crash keg for a rest of two days. Then cold crash

Offline denny

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2023, 08:42:55 am »
Red and white, I’m intrigued by the vitality starter. Is that the amount for a 5 gallon batch? My SOP uses a lot of yeast and it would be good to save some money on dry yeast with your method.

I have a slightly different procedure that results in drinkable lager in about 14 days. If you can give it another 7 days lagering even better.

Pitch dry yeast into 50F wort at a rate of 1.9 grams per liter. Have had success with cellar science German, Berlin, Baja and Diamond lager.

Let fermentation raise temp to 54F and around day 5-6 cap fermenter to 15 psi. Remove settled yeast.

On day 7 start lowering temp 2-3F per day. When at 35-37 either keg with gelatin or lager another week.

Yes the starter is for 21L in the fermenter. I think you will be pleasantly surprised how well the above starter works. No stir plate either, just a couple gentle swirls to get the co² out. The goferm protect evolution provides many building blocks for the yeast that they can readily use only in the absence of oxygen.

I'm very familiar with Diamond and Berlin (which is super similar if not exactly S23 or an S23 blend). With these yeasts you might try fermenting around 55-58°F. In side by side split 10 gallon batches I couldn't tell the difference in the glass. It does speed up the ferment, but still equally clean in my experience. Hopefully some of this helps.

Ok I’m gonna try it. So if I’m making 15 gallon batch I would use a 1500ml starter with 36 grams of yeast. Morning of brewday?

How much go ferm should I use? Do you boil it with the starter wort?

Pitch the entire starter into chilled wort but no oxygen?

I love trying new tricks with dry yeast.

Yes, 3 tsp goferm protect evolution in your starter and boil it 5-10 mins. I pitch the entire starter and yes no need for oxygen at all. If I see 10 points in the first 24 hours,  I usually see twice that in the second 24 hours. Please report back with what your results are on your equipment. I typically do not temper my starter temperature down closer to the wort temperature, but if you normally do I would stick with that procedure.

If you use dry yeast, there is no need for O2 anyway,

Right. When I dry pitch I don’t oxygenate. I wasn’t sure on this case because of the vitality starter with wort first?

Personally I don't see the point in making a starter for dry yeast. The manufacturers don't recommend it. Many even recommend against it. I get great performance without it. But if you do,the same thing goes...no aeration necessary.

I agree that the manufacturers don't recommend it for their brewing side products, but when I looked at their wine side dry yeast it was different in the adjuncts added with the yeast. That lead me to try different things. Here's some results from the last couple years of dry yeast summed up for the first 24 hours:

1-3 points Sprinkled dry onto wort
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution
6-8 points 500ml vitality starter made 4 hrs before pitch
8-16 points 500ml vitality starter with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution made 4 hrs before pitch

The results have been great for my brewing. Seeing low kräusen way earlier and the yeast dumping the pH sooner are positives all the way around to me. It really isn't much effort on a busy brew day either, but is it necessary... no. I agree you can make beer by skipping a vitality starter altogether.

Yes, but that's wine, not beer. Different situation
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline joshlaston

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2023, 09:42:54 am »
Great yeast under pressure, balanced profile with hints of imitation vanilla extract on the nose. Direct pitch and set head pressure will add a day to fermenting, you should be done in 6 days tops. The yeast handles up to 30 psi no problem, just slowly back it down if you want to repitch part of it again.

Thanks. This is pretty much what I was looking for. I'm 4 days out from pitch and the constant release from my homemade spunding valve (put together with parts from my company's HVAC stock for $20) is done. The PRV I used is only rated for 15psi (and it's accurate) so I couldn't go whole hog at 20-30 psi as many recommend.

I will take a reading tonight, hopefully cold crash Friday, keg transfer Saturday, and have something close to drinkable Sunday.

If you like the results with S23, I can give some tips to accelerate turnaround time with it, without sacrificing quality. I have made 400 gallons+ with S23 under pressure, it's a solid yeast!

From what I am finding, not many people seem to have issues with diacetyl with s-23. My sample tasted, smelled, and had the mouthfeel of drinking popcorn butter. I'm at FG, but hoping moving to (for lack of a better term) a secondary under atmospheric pressure for a day or two will clear things up.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2023, 05:07:38 am »
If it doesn’t clear it up, consider a krausening (starter volume should work well enough, I would think).
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline joshlaston

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2023, 10:25:54 pm »
If it doesn’t clear it up, consider a krausening (starter volume should work well enough, I would think).

Visited the local homebrew store to pick up some yeast and dme to krausen. Walked in, said I had diacetyl after hitting FG before even asking for anything. He said “gonna pitch some yeast to clean it up?”

Bubbling away for about 2 hours now. We will see in a few days the result.

Offline Red over White

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2023, 07:35:40 am »
If it doesn’t clear it up, consider a krausening (starter volume should work well enough, I would think).

Visited the local homebrew store to pick up some yeast and dme to krausen. Walked in, said I had diacetyl after hitting FG before even asking for anything. He said “gonna pitch some yeast to clean it up?”

Bubbling away for about 2 hours now. We will see in a few days the result.

Let us know how everything turns out and what you suspect caused it. I have never had that issue with S23 before.

Offline Red over White

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2023, 07:39:14 am »
Red and white, I’m intrigued by the vitality starter. Is that the amount for a 5 gallon batch? My SOP uses a lot of yeast and it would be good to save some money on dry yeast with your method.

I have a slightly different procedure that results in drinkable lager in about 14 days. If you can give it another 7 days lagering even better.

Pitch dry yeast into 50F wort at a rate of 1.9 grams per liter. Have had success with cellar science German, Berlin, Baja and Diamond lager.

Let fermentation raise temp to 54F and around day 5-6 cap fermenter to 15 psi. Remove settled yeast.

On day 7 start lowering temp 2-3F per day. When at 35-37 either keg with gelatin or lager another week.

Yes the starter is for 21L in the fermenter. I think you will be pleasantly surprised how well the above starter works. No stir plate either, just a couple gentle swirls to get the co² out. The goferm protect evolution provides many building blocks for the yeast that they can readily use only in the absence of oxygen.

I'm very familiar with Diamond and Berlin (which is super similar if not exactly S23 or an S23 blend). With these yeasts you might try fermenting around 55-58°F. In side by side split 10 gallon batches I couldn't tell the difference in the glass. It does speed up the ferment, but still equally clean in my experience. Hopefully some of this helps.

Ok I’m gonna try it. So if I’m making 15 gallon batch I would use a 1500ml starter with 36 grams of yeast. Morning of brewday?

How much go ferm should I use? Do you boil it with the starter wort?

Pitch the entire starter into chilled wort but no oxygen?

I love trying new tricks with dry yeast.

Yes, 3 tsp goferm protect evolution in your starter and boil it 5-10 mins. I pitch the entire starter and yes no need for oxygen at all. If I see 10 points in the first 24 hours,  I usually see twice that in the second 24 hours. Please report back with what your results are on your equipment. I typically do not temper my starter temperature down closer to the wort temperature, but if you normally do I would stick with that procedure.

If you use dry yeast, there is no need for O2 anyway,

Right. When I dry pitch I don’t oxygenate. I wasn’t sure on this case because of the vitality starter with wort first?

Personally I don't see the point in making a starter for dry yeast. The manufacturers don't recommend it. Many even recommend against it. I get great performance without it. But if you do,the same thing goes...no aeration necessary.

I agree that the manufacturers don't recommend it for their brewing side products, but when I looked at their wine side dry yeast it was different in the adjuncts added with the yeast. That lead me to try different things. Here's some results from the last couple years of dry yeast summed up for the first 24 hours:

1-3 points Sprinkled dry onto wort
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution
6-8 points 500ml vitality starter made 4 hrs before pitch
8-16 points 500ml vitality starter with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution made 4 hrs before pitch

The results have been great for my brewing. Seeing low kräusen way earlier and the yeast dumping the pH sooner are positives all the way around to me. It really isn't much effort on a busy brew day either, but is it necessary... no. I agree you can make beer by skipping a vitality starter altogether.

Yes, but that's wine, not beer. Different situation

How is the situation different?

Offline denny

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2023, 07:48:35 am »
Red and white, I’m intrigued by the vitality starter. Is that the amount for a 5 gallon batch? My SOP uses a lot of yeast and it would be good to save some money on dry yeast with your method.

I have a slightly different procedure that results in drinkable lager in about 14 days. If you can give it another 7 days lagering even better.

Pitch dry yeast into 50F wort at a rate of 1.9 grams per liter. Have had success with cellar science German, Berlin, Baja and Diamond lager.

Let fermentation raise temp to 54F and around day 5-6 cap fermenter to 15 psi. Remove settled yeast.

On day 7 start lowering temp 2-3F per day. When at 35-37 either keg with gelatin or lager another week.

Yes the starter is for 21L in the fermenter. I think you will be pleasantly surprised how well the above starter works. No stir plate either, just a couple gentle swirls to get the co² out. The goferm protect evolution provides many building blocks for the yeast that they can readily use only in the absence of oxygen.

I'm very familiar with Diamond and Berlin (which is super similar if not exactly S23 or an S23 blend). With these yeasts you might try fermenting around 55-58°F. In side by side split 10 gallon batches I couldn't tell the difference in the glass. It does speed up the ferment, but still equally clean in my experience. Hopefully some of this helps.

Ok I’m gonna try it. So if I’m making 15 gallon batch I would use a 1500ml starter with 36 grams of yeast. Morning of brewday?

How much go ferm should I use? Do you boil it with the starter wort?

Pitch the entire starter into chilled wort but no oxygen?

I love trying new tricks with dry yeast.

Yes, 3 tsp goferm protect evolution in your starter and boil it 5-10 mins. I pitch the entire starter and yes no need for oxygen at all. If I see 10 points in the first 24 hours,  I usually see twice that in the second 24 hours. Please report back with what your results are on your equipment. I typically do not temper my starter temperature down closer to the wort temperature, but if you normally do I would stick with that procedure.

If you use dry yeast, there is no need for O2 anyway,

Right. When I dry pitch I don’t oxygenate. I wasn’t sure on this case because of the vitality starter with wort first?

Personally I don't see the point in making a starter for dry yeast. The manufacturers don't recommend it. Many even recommend against it. I get great performance without it. But if you do,the same thing goes...no aeration necessary.

I agree that the manufacturers don't recommend it for their brewing side products, but when I looked at their wine side dry yeast it was different in the adjuncts added with the yeast. That lead me to try different things. Here's some results from the last couple years of dry yeast summed up for the first 24 hours:

1-3 points Sprinkled dry onto wort
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution
6-8 points 500ml vitality starter made 4 hrs before pitch
8-16 points 500ml vitality starter with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution made 4 hrs before pitch

The results have been great for my brewing. Seeing low kräusen way earlier and the yeast dumping the pH sooner are positives all the way around to me. It really isn't much effort on a busy brew day either, but is it necessary... no. I agree you can make beer by skipping a vitality starter altogether.

Yes, but that's wine, not beer. Different situation

How is the situation different?

Higher gravity, different pH, different nutrient requirements
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Red over White

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2023, 09:49:41 am »
Red and white, I’m intrigued by the vitality starter. Is that the amount for a 5 gallon batch? My SOP uses a lot of yeast and it would be good to save some money on dry yeast with your method.

I have a slightly different procedure that results in drinkable lager in about 14 days. If you can give it another 7 days lagering even better.

Pitch dry yeast into 50F wort at a rate of 1.9 grams per liter. Have had success with cellar science German, Berlin, Baja and Diamond lager.

Let fermentation raise temp to 54F and around day 5-6 cap fermenter to 15 psi. Remove settled yeast.

On day 7 start lowering temp 2-3F per day. When at 35-37 either keg with gelatin or lager another week.

Yes the starter is for 21L in the fermenter. I think you will be pleasantly surprised how well the above starter works. No stir plate either, just a couple gentle swirls to get the co² out. The goferm protect evolution provides many building blocks for the yeast that they can readily use only in the absence of oxygen.

I'm very familiar with Diamond and Berlin (which is super similar if not exactly S23 or an S23 blend). With these yeasts you might try fermenting around 55-58°F. In side by side split 10 gallon batches I couldn't tell the difference in the glass. It does speed up the ferment, but still equally clean in my experience. Hopefully some of this helps.

Ok I’m gonna try it. So if I’m making 15 gallon batch I would use a 1500ml starter with 36 grams of yeast. Morning of brewday?

How much go ferm should I use? Do you boil it with the starter wort?

Pitch the entire starter into chilled wort but no oxygen?

I love trying new tricks with dry yeast.

Yes, 3 tsp goferm protect evolution in your starter and boil it 5-10 mins. I pitch the entire starter and yes no need for oxygen at all. If I see 10 points in the first 24 hours,  I usually see twice that in the second 24 hours. Please report back with what your results are on your equipment. I typically do not temper my starter temperature down closer to the wort temperature, but if you normally do I would stick with that procedure.

If you use dry yeast, there is no need for O2 anyway,

Right. When I dry pitch I don’t oxygenate. I wasn’t sure on this case because of the vitality starter with wort first?

Personally I don't see the point in making a starter for dry yeast. The manufacturers don't recommend it. Many even recommend against it. I get great performance without it. But if you do,the same thing goes...no aeration necessary.

I agree that the manufacturers don't recommend it for their brewing side products, but when I looked at their wine side dry yeast it was different in the adjuncts added with the yeast. That lead me to try different things. Here's some results from the last couple years of dry yeast summed up for the first 24 hours:

1-3 points Sprinkled dry onto wort
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water
1-3 points Rehydated in boiled/cooled strike water with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution
6-8 points 500ml vitality starter made 4 hrs before pitch
8-16 points 500ml vitality starter with 1 tsp goferm protect evolution made 4 hrs before pitch

The results have been great for my brewing. Seeing low kräusen way earlier and the yeast dumping the pH sooner are positives all the way around to me. It really isn't much effort on a busy brew day either, but is it necessary... no. I agree you can make beer by skipping a vitality starter altogether.

Yes, but that's wine, not beer. Different situation

How is the situation different?

Higher gravity, different pH, different nutrient requirements

Goferm protect evolution is made specifically to reduce osmotic shock when rehydrating to increase vitality and viability, while providing the minerals and micronutrients the book Yeast The practical guide to fermentations describes as essential to brewers yeast health. In my side by side trials with identical wort in all rounder fermenters, vitality starters with goferm protect evolution out performs everything, especially just sprinkling in dry yeast. For the 32 cents it costs per 5 gallon batch, it is doing what it claims and has the nutrients brewers yeast need. It really may not be all that different.

Offline joshlaston

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2023, 08:22:06 pm »
If it doesn’t clear it up, consider a krausening (starter volume should work well enough, I would think).

Visited the local homebrew store to pick up some yeast and dme to krausen. Walked in, said I had diacetyl after hitting FG before even asking for anything. He said “gonna pitch some yeast to clean it up?”

Bubbling away for about 2 hours now. We will see in a few days the result.

Let us know how everything turns out and what you suspect caused it. I have never had that issue with S23 before.

Had my friend over yesterday who got me going again and gave him a sample. He said that in his opinion, it was one of the following -  only using a single packet of yeast, pitching a bit too hot, and setting the head pressure. Or a combination of them. So, rookie mistakes.

Two days of krausening has it cleaned up dramatically, but still has a bit. Still getting a bubble on average 2.5 seconds, so it has some time. Now that I can taste more than a butter bomb, there's a damn good beer under there.

Offline Red over White

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2023, 06:54:10 am »
You followed the procedure that is promoted the most on internet forums and YouTube, don't sweat it. It is the little things that can make a big difference and as you use a yeast over and over you will learn what you like in the glass. For 1.055 beers and under I learned to pitch 1 sachet S23 with the vitality starter into 58°F wort, let it build pressure natively and keep it in the low 60's until high kräusen, it can free rise to the mid 60's with 15+ psi on it after that. The starter gives the yeast a very healthy environment to hydrate in, no head pressure and slightly lower than room temperature during growth phase helps keep things squeaky clean before the increase in pressure keeps things cleaner. This makes quite a mature beer for it's young age and doesn't have a lot of mopping up to do in the lagering process. We are all still learning how to use pressure fermentation and get the results we desire, it's an ongoing process.

Offline joshlaston

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Re: First Pressure Ferment (s-23)
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2023, 10:14:01 am »
You followed the procedure that is promoted the most on internet forums and YouTube, don't sweat it. It is the little things that can make a big difference and as you use a yeast over and over you will learn what you like in the glass. For 1.055 beers and under I learned to pitch 1 sachet S23 with the vitality starter into 58°F wort, let it build pressure natively and keep it in the low 60's until high kräusen, it can free rise to the mid 60's with 15+ psi on it after that. The starter gives the yeast a very healthy environment to hydrate in, no head pressure and slightly lower than room temperature during growth phase helps keep things squeaky clean before the increase in pressure keeps things cleaner. This makes quite a mature beer for it's young age and doesn't have a lot of mopping up to do in the lagering process. We are all still learning how to use pressure fermentation and get the results we desire, it's an ongoing process.

I look at it in the same way I did golf for years. You start off making mistakes and learn how to get out of them. That way, once you are better down the road and you make a mistake, you already know how to get things back on track. Chances are I shouldn't have started back up with a lager, but I also like challenging myself. And one batch in I have already learned more than I would have just brewed my failsafe porter.