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Author Topic: How much bleach?  (Read 3320 times)

Fire Rooster

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2023, 10:55:38 am »
As a caveat, I always rinse/sanitize fermenter with StarSan right before use.
Iodophor is not very effective against mold spores, which I think is what my bottles had
that a bleach solution eliminated.

I may be wrong, but I thought iodophor was more effective than StarSan with mold spores

I don't think your possibly wrong, it's that you possibly don't recall correctly.
As I am getting older it happens more often with me.
Without the internet/phone I would be wandering the streets looking for my home.

https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.com/equipment-systems/keep-clean-common-keg-cleaning-questions-answered/

Cheers

Offline denny

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2023, 11:01:41 am »
As a caveat, I always rinse/sanitize fermenter with StarSan right before use.
Iodophor is not very effective against mold spores, which I think is what my bottles had
that a bleach solution eliminated.

I may be wrong, but I thought iodophor was more effective than StarSan with mold spores

I don't think your possibly wrong, it's that you possibly don't recall correctly.
As I am getting older it happens more often with me.
Without the internet/phone I would be wandering the streets looking for my home.

https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.com/equipment-systems/keep-clean-common-keg-cleaning-questions-answered/

Cheers

Ah, that article. Seems like they used the wrong concentration of iodophor. Incorrect info.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline erockrph

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2023, 12:34:33 pm »
Allow me to straddle the middle ground here.

I agree that iodophor and Star San/Saniclean are sufficient for sanitization around the brewhouse, and rarely is there a true "need" for bleach that wouldn't be covered by one of those more commonly used sanitizers. Chloramine is certainly a risk in using bleach.

That said, bleach isn't really the boogeyman that it's made out to be. Just be sure to rinse it well. You can also neutralize it easily using hydrogen peroxide or an ascorbic acid solution if you're concerned about leaving residue behind. It works great as a sanitizer, and there's no real reason not to use it if you're comfortable with how to handle it.

See... it's the rinsing part that I don't like. I've gone through the effort to clean and then sanitize my equipment but then you tell me to run water, with its myriad of microbes, all over it. Not thanks.
And this is why I stick to Star San and PBW. Beach is NOT no-rinse. Yeast use it to form chlorophenols, which creates a band-aid/plasticky off flavor.

Bleach is no rinse for food service at the appropriate ratio.

https://waterandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/3-Sink-Cleanupstamp_Letter_COLOR.pdf

https://waterandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Kitchen-Cleanup-Surfacesstamp_Letter_COLOR.pdf


https://waterandhealth.org/disinfect/food_safety/sanitizing-food-contact-surfaces-with-bleach-solutions-in-restaurants-and-institutions/
You can use it as a no rinse sanitizer for food service, but as far as beer is concerned bleach should generally be rinsed, because even at low residual amounts yeast can turn it into detectable amounts of chlorophenols.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline denny

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2023, 01:07:55 pm »
Allow me to straddle the middle ground here.

I agree that iodophor and Star San/Saniclean are sufficient for sanitization around the brewhouse, and rarely is there a true "need" for bleach that wouldn't be covered by one of those more commonly used sanitizers. Chloramine is certainly a risk in using bleach.

That said, bleach isn't really the boogeyman that it's made out to be. Just be sure to rinse it well. You can also neutralize it easily using hydrogen peroxide or an ascorbic acid solution if you're concerned about leaving residue behind. It works great as a sanitizer, and there's no real reason not to use it if you're comfortable with how to handle it.

See... it's the rinsing part that I don't like. I've gone through the effort to clean and then sanitize my equipment but then you tell me to run water, with its myriad of microbes, all over it. Not thanks.
And this is why I stick to Star San and PBW. Beach is NOT no-rinse. Yeast use it to form chlorophenols, which creates a band-aid/plasticky off flavor.

Bleach is no rinse for food service at the appropriate ratio.

https://waterandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/3-Sink-Cleanupstamp_Letter_COLOR.pdf

https://waterandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Kitchen-Cleanup-Surfacesstamp_Letter_COLOR.pdf


https://waterandhealth.org/disinfect/food_safety/sanitizing-food-contact-surfaces-with-bleach-solutions-in-restaurants-and-institutions/
You can use it as a no rinse sanitizer for food service, but as far as beer is concerned bleach should generally be rinsed, because even at low residual amounts yeast can turn it into detectable amounts of chlorophenols.

Agreed
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Fire Rooster

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2023, 01:57:43 pm »
Allow me to straddle the middle ground here.

I agree that iodophor and Star San/Saniclean are sufficient for sanitization around the brewhouse, and rarely is there a true "need" for bleach that wouldn't be covered by one of those more commonly used sanitizers. Chloramine is certainly a risk in using bleach.

That said, bleach isn't really the boogeyman that it's made out to be. Just be sure to rinse it well. You can also neutralize it easily using hydrogen peroxide or an ascorbic acid solution if you're concerned about leaving residue behind. It works great as a sanitizer, and there's no real reason not to use it if you're comfortable with how to handle it.

See... it's the rinsing part that I don't like. I've gone through the effort to clean and then sanitize my equipment but then you tell me to run water, with its myriad of microbes, all over it. Not thanks.
And this is why I stick to Star San and PBW. Beach is NOT no-rinse. Yeast use it to form chlorophenols, which creates a band-aid/plasticky off flavor.

Bleach is no rinse for food service at the appropriate ratio.

https://waterandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/3-Sink-Cleanupstamp_Letter_COLOR.pdf

https://waterandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Kitchen-Cleanup-Surfacesstamp_Letter_COLOR.pdf


https://waterandhealth.org/disinfect/food_safety/sanitizing-food-contact-surfaces-with-bleach-solutions-in-restaurants-and-institutions/
You can use it as a no rinse sanitizer for food service, but as far as beer is concerned bleach should generally be rinsed, because even at low residual amounts yeast can turn it into detectable amounts of chlorophenols.

Agreed

Agreed.

Offline nvshooter2276

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2023, 02:22:43 pm »
To all who replied: Thank you. All that was written is tasty info.

I think I'll try the iodophor stuff. I'd still have to drive the 80-mile round trip to get it but maybe it's a powder and can be had in larger volumes than can StarSan. My plan is to sanitize my bottles and caps during the bottling phase by holding five or six underwater for the several minutes of contact time required. I'll be bottling in one-liter bottles, so I'll need just 22 or 23 to bottle the whole six gallons. I understand that my plan will take much more time than how the really knowledgeable and experienced brewers would sterilize their bottles, but I'm willing to take that extra time to get bottles that aren't going to infect my product halfway to the day I get to crack one open.

I have a 22-gallon tote from Walmart that will be used to sterilize the fermenter and the bottling bucket. I figger about three gallons of sterilant solution will provide a sufficient depth to roll the buckets on their long axis for the several minutes required to kill all the bad actors we face when making beer at home. The transfer valves and gaskets would also take a dip.

Offline BrewBama

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How much bleach?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2023, 03:29:09 pm »
Iodophors is liquid. I use .5 oz in 5 gal cool water.

I order it from a brew supply store and they deliver it to my doorstep.

Offline noonancm

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2023, 03:47:44 pm »
I order iodophor through Amazon and use it for sanitizing most stuff. As for bottles, I rinse after I pour the beer, run it through the dishwasher with the other dishes to make sure they are clean and then on the day of bottling, I run them through again without the soap in order to sanitize with heat.

The added advantage is that I can bottle over the dishwasher and the door can catch any drips.

Offline fredthecat

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2023, 05:41:36 pm »
To all who replied: Thank you. All that was written is tasty info.

I think I'll try the iodophor stuff. I'd still have to drive the 80-mile round trip to get it but maybe it's a powder and can be had in larger volumes than can StarSan. My plan is to sanitize my bottles and caps during the bottling phase by holding five or six underwater for the several minutes of contact time required. I'll be bottling in one-liter bottles, so I'll need just 22 or 23 to bottle the whole six gallons. I understand that my plan will take much more time than how the really knowledgeable and experienced brewers would sterilize their bottles, but I'm willing to take that extra time to get bottles that aren't going to infect my product halfway to the day I get to crack one open.

I have a 22-gallon tote from Walmart that will be used to sterilize the fermenter and the bottling bucket. I figger about three gallons of sterilant solution will provide a sufficient depth to roll the buckets on their long axis for the several minutes required to kill all the bad actors we face when making beer at home. The transfer valves and gaskets would also take a dip.

i may be wrong in my perception of how you're doing this.. but, IMHO
1. copy what other homebrewers do and works for them. i think youre overthinking this sanitization stuff.
2. i am also a frugal homebrewer but there is a major improvement in enjoyment and ease of this hobby in buying stuff designed for homebrewing ie. homebrewing sanitizers, equipment designed for or consistently used by homebrewers. trust me it will pay off in lack of aggravation and success.

and yeah as was said iodophor is a liquid and can be bought off amazon and delivered.

good luck

Fire Rooster

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2023, 09:49:17 am »
Just to be clear, bleach used on my HDPE fermenters, are not the be all.

Whenever an overnight bleach solution soak is done, it's always rinsed with water.
Followed up with an iodophor rinse, fermenter is closed then shaken, then air dried. 
After storage and fermenter is ready to be used, it's rinsed with StarSan.

Cheers
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 02:25:54 am by Fire Rooster »

Offline Kevin

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2023, 07:58:45 am »
To all who replied: Thank you. All that was written is tasty info.

I think I'll try the iodophor stuff. I'd still have to drive the 80-mile round trip to get it but maybe it's a powder and can be had in larger volumes than can StarSan. My plan is to sanitize my bottles and caps during the bottling phase by holding five or six underwater for the several minutes of contact time required. I'll be bottling in one-liter bottles, so I'll need just 22 or 23 to bottle the whole six gallons. I understand that my plan will take much more time than how the really knowledgeable and experienced brewers would sterilize their bottles, but I'm willing to take that extra time to get bottles that aren't going to infect my product halfway to the day I get to crack one open.

I have a 22-gallon tote from Walmart that will be used to sterilize the fermenter and the bottling bucket. I figger about three gallons of sterilant solution will provide a sufficient depth to roll the buckets on their long axis for the several minutes required to kill all the bad actors we face when making beer at home. The transfer valves and gaskets would also take a dip.

Do you have a dishwasher? When I bottle I wash them thoroughly and then put them in the dishwasher on the hottest setting available... some dishwashers also have a sanitize setting. I skip the Starsan/Iodophore/etc. mixing altogether.
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Offline nvshooter2276

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2023, 11:31:56 pm »
Yes; I have a dishwasher. I suspect it's not doing the job because I'm seeing dried-on food remains after two wash cycles. I rent my billet, so getting a new dishwasher would be quite a task. Management has no desire to spend any money that might make life better for the tenants. I'm thinking the pump in the thing is buggered. I expect I'll soon be washing dishes by hand-- like I did decades ago when I was in college. I learned to wash dishes by hand when I was not yet twelve years old. It's one of those things you never forget...

Offline neuse

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2023, 09:22:10 am »
Yes; I have a dishwasher. I suspect it's not doing the job because I'm seeing dried-on food remains after two wash cycles. I rent my billet, so getting a new dishwasher would be quite a task. Management has no desire to spend any money that might make life better for the tenants. I'm thinking the pump in the thing is buggered. I expect I'll soon be washing dishes by hand-- like I did decades ago when I was in college. I learned to wash dishes by hand when I was not yet twelve years old. It's one of those things you never forget...
I wouldn't trust a dishwasher anyway. According to BYO, "The heated rinse cycle of a home dishwasher is great for sanitizing bottles, but keep two things in mind. First, the bottles still need to be clean prior to being placed in the dishwasher; any deposits inside the bottles will not be removed by the water spray. Second, be sure to run at least one cycle of water only (no soap) in the dishwasher prior to placing your bottles in." [https://web.archive.org/web/20120307224446/https:/byo.com/stories/article/indices/19-brewing-tips/52-24-brewing-tips-and-rules-of-thumb]

Offline Kevin

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2023, 06:40:09 am »
I believe I did say to wash them thoroughly. The running of a water only cycle before putting them in to sanitize is not something I often do though.
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Offline nvshooter2276

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Re: How much bleach?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2023, 12:53:42 pm »
I agree about running the dishwasher with no soap in order to clean the bottles. The mouths of the bottles are so small that I'm guessing very little of the water gets in there to do the job we want.

In something totally unrelated, I found several dozen 22-ounce beer bottles behind a door of my kitchen cabinets that hasn't been opened in years and years. These bottles are heavy, so they have to be for bottling homebrew. They are also of the crimp-top variety. I have no memory of ever putting these bottles on the lazy susan behind the door, nor of ever buying them. I have no memory of anybody ever gifting these bottles to me. I have no memory of ever buying and drinking several dozen of thick, heavy brown bottles of beer just to get the bottles. I prefer transparent, one-liter plastic soda bottles so I can see the trub moving toward the mouth as I pour. I have no idea as to what I will do with these bottles. For now, they are back behind the door and will set there for the next decade or two...