Author Topic: BJCP comments...APA  (Read 3829 times)

Offline roguejim

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2010, 12:23:03 PM »
Yes, I got the impression that most commentary is simply a sensory recording.  Two things have me stumped though.  One is why the aroma didn't score higher.  I'm not sure from the comments.
AROMA- 8/12...low pale malt toastiness...citrus/herbal hop aroma, similar to Centennial...low peach ester...No DMS/diacetyl

Knowing the recipe, here are a couple of thoughts.
Quote
low peach ester
I usually get this a apricot, ok peach is close, but the Judge used the word "LOW".  With the all late hopping that is there (bittering, flavor and aroma, all Amarillo) with bittering going in at 15 or 20 minutes depending on version of the recipe I would expect a higher level here. 

I have seen a lot of variability in how the hop flavor and aroma comes through,  While all the examples have been really good, I suspect the better ones are quickly cooled.



Maybe I'm not understanding you here.

Why would you expect higher peach esters, if esters are contributed by yeast, and not the hops?  You seem to be relating the peach/apricot esters to the Amarillo, no?

Offline bonjour

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2010, 01:11:03 PM »
I perceive Amarillo as having a lot of apricot, especially in the aroma.  Fruity aromas are typically esters.  so I would have read the peach as Amarillo, not a yeast contribution.  The yeast contribution would be very low, and usually, if present, covered up by the hops.  It takes a real good pallet, better than mine, to tell the difference.   This is a beer to be drunk young, as the hop character, especially the aroma and flavor will fade with time.   Not knowing the age of the beer, this may be part of the impact.  The judge has no idea of what you put into the beer, it's age or how it has been handled through its life, only his senses to guide him.
Fred Bonjour
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AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline witsok

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2010, 05:24:23 PM »
One thing I disagree on -- mouthfeel.  I feel every beer should be a 5 by default, then subtract for anything not quite right.  So to style for mouthfeel would be a perfect 5, not a 4/

I understand your logic here and don't have any issue with it.  Next time I may try this approach and see how it works for me.

Also, I am a little more creative with the "Overall Impression" section where the beer is judged from 1 to 10.  If a beer is to style but just seems rather bland, I might give it a 5 or 6.  On the other hand, if a beer is totally NOT to style but it tastes phenomenal, I have been known to give it an 8 or 9 on many occasions, sometimes with the comment, "ICTSAD -- I could drink this stuff all day", it is so delicious.  Not to style, but again, that WOW factor.  I do not limit this section to whether it is to style or not.  I see it as a free-for-all fudge factor -- and an opportunity to provide quality feedback to improve the beer at next brewing.

I can see how my post would suggest that I just look at stylistic parameters for overall impression.  This isn't the case, but I can't completely eliminate style from the equation.  As an extreme example, judging an American stout - after checking with the stewards that the beer was not misentered or check-in, it turns out to be an awesome saison.  I'm not going to give a high overall impression.  What I'll do is establish a floor based upon "stylistic" paramters and then usually add points based upon how much I enjoyed the beer.  So instead of a four (since it missed style badly) I may give a 5 or a 6 and comment it would do much better as a saison.  Likewise, if a beer was well made but it is a style I don't particularly enjoy, I'm not going to give a low score just becasue I don't care for it.  In this case I would not subtract at all.  To me Overall Impression is balancing the stylistic merits and hedonistic perferences.

I prefer to be open to judging assignments and don't have a problem judging styles I don't necessarily enjoy.

What I think people need to understand that scale is really centered closer to the 60-70% range for beers made to style.  I really try to keep this in mind when I judge to make sure my scoring stays consistant from entry to entry.  I more of a bottom up judge.  But I do review the final score for sanity check.  If the bottom up is way off from what I thought it would be I go back and check my notes and adjust accordingly.  To me a score of 37 is very good.  Sound like a spot on example which is at the point of hedonistic preference.

Offline narcout

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2010, 08:30:32 PM »
I recently had the same thing happen with a BoPils I submitted to a comp that scored a 37.  All the comments were positive, which was nice, but doesn't really help me figure out how to bump it up to the next level.

My overall competition experience has been similar. The higher a beer scores, the less concrete constructive criticism I receive. Which I think makes sense. The better the beer, the less obvious flaws there are to comment on, and the more subjective the scoring becomes.

Offline Mikey

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2010, 08:34:20 PM »
I perceive Amarillo as having a lot of apricot, especially in the aroma.  Fruity aromas are typically esters.  so I would have read the peach as Amarillo, not a yeast contribution.  The yeast contribution would be very low, and usually, if present, covered up by the hops.  It takes a real good pallet, better than mine, to tell the difference.   This is a beer to be drunk young, as the hop character, especially the aroma and flavor will fade with time.   Not knowing the age of the beer, this may be part of the impact.  The judge has no idea of what you put into the beer, it's age or how it has been handled through its life, only his senses to guide him.

Apricot???

I never got that.

Offline roguejim

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 02:40:59 AM »
I perceive Amarillo as having a lot of apricot, especially in the aroma.  Fruity aromas are typically esters.  so I would have read the peach as Amarillo, not a yeast contribution.  The yeast contribution would be very low, and usually, if present, covered up by the hops.  It takes a real good pallet, better than mine, to tell the difference.   This is a beer to be drunk young, as the hop character, especially the aroma and flavor will fade with time.   Not knowing the age of the beer, this may be part of the impact.  The judge has no idea of what you put into the beer, it's age or how it has been handled through its life, only his senses to guide him.

The reason I'm confused is that I've been under the impression that esters are always attributed to the yeast.  Fruity aromatics attributed to the hops would not be referred to as fruity esters.  I'm not saying I'm correct, just what I've gleaned so far from various threads.  Maybe someone can spell it out to me so I can stop looking like an idiot!

Offline gordonstrong

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 05:22:08 AM »
Quote
The reason I'm confused is that I've been under the impression that esters are always attributed to the yeast.  Fruity aromatics attributed to the hops would not be referred to as fruity esters.  I'm not saying I'm correct, just what I've gleaned so far from various threads.  Maybe someone can spell it out to me so I can stop looking like an idiot!

Esters are fruity, regardless of the source.  The biggest source of fruity esters is, well, fruit.  Individual fruit can have multiple esters, as well as other compounds.  Take all of those together, and you get the distinctive aroma of a fruit.  "Fruity esters" isn't a phrase invented to describe beer.

Some of these chemicals can be produced by yeast, but some of them exist in hops and malt too.  It's not like one ingredient only gets to have one distinctive chemical that provides its aroma; it's almost always more complicated than that.

Yeast generally do produce esters.  But hops can have any number of esters.  Citrusy is a common hop descriptor.  Citrus is a category of fruit.  So hops can be fruity.  They can also be grassy, herbal, piney, etc.  I think CaraMunich malt tastes like plums.  Certainly I've gotted dried cherries, raisins, grapes and other such flavors from malt.

So just remember that esters are fruity, compounds can have multiple aromatic chemicals present, and that those chemicals can come from multiple sources.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline bluesman

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 05:59:48 AM »
I figured this would help.

Wikipedia

Ester
 
A carboxylic acid ester. R and R' denote any alkyl or aryl group, respectively Esters are chemical compounds derived by reacting an oxoacid (one containing an oxo group, X=O) with a hydroxyl compound such as an alcohol or phenol. Esters are usually derived from an inorganic acid or organic acid[/b] in which at least one -OH (hydroxyl) group is replaced by an -O-alkyl (alkoxy) group, and most commonly from carboxylic acids and alcohols. Basically, esters are formed by condensing an acid with an alcohol.
Ron Price

Offline bonjour

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 07:05:35 AM »
I figured this would help.

Wikipedia

Ester
 
A carboxylic acid ester. R and R' denote any alkyl or aryl group, respectively Esters are chemical compounds derived by reacting an oxoacid (one containing an oxo group, X=O) with a hydroxyl compound such as an alcohol or phenol. Esters are usually derived from an inorganic acid or organic acid[/b] in which at least one -OH (hydroxyl) group is replaced by an -O-alkyl (alkoxy) group, and most commonly from carboxylic acids and alcohols. Basically, esters are formed by condensing an acid with an alcohol.
and this help's how?????

Not doubting what is here, but my organic chemistry is not up to this.
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline bluesman

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2010, 07:16:01 AM »
I figured this would help.

Wikipedia

Ester
 
A carboxylic acid ester. R and R' denote any alkyl or aryl group, respectively Esters are chemical compounds derived by reacting an oxoacid (one containing an oxo group, X=O) with a hydroxyl compound such as an alcohol or phenol. Esters are usually derived from an inorganic acid or organic acid[/b] in which at least one -OH (hydroxyl) group is replaced by an -O-alkyl (alkoxy) group, and most commonly from carboxylic acids and alcohols. Basically, esters are formed by condensing an acid with an alcohol.
and this help's how?????

Not doubting what is here, but my organic chemistry is not up to this.

Sorry Fred.

Just trying to shed some light on the concept. 

Here's a great study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223249/

Ron Price

Offline roguejim

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Re: BJCP comments...APA
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2010, 11:36:00 AM »
Thank you, Gordon.  No more questions here.