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Author Topic: Wheat ...  (Read 997 times)

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2024, 11:23:30 am »
Head scratching... I agree with all the points raised.  I was just trying to further clarify (pun intended) the points raised by Martin.  Since you used malted wheat, there should be no issue about gelatinization, unless I am missing something....which is entirely possible.  It could be as simple as super low modification of the wheat malt?  I don't know and I think I have exceeded the length of my skis.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2024, 12:52:09 pm »
I'd be surprised if this is a starch issue if you used finings and cold crashed. Starch doesn't form a permanent haze.

The probable source of haze is a protein-polyphenol complex. There are interesting reactions that cause proteins and polyphenols to come together and form hazes. You often need just the right amount of both for them to bind in a complex that causes permanent haze like that. If you find some wheat malt never causes it, that's the easy route to avoid this problem. You can also conduct a protein rest and reduce the amount of protein. There are other strategies, but one or both of these are too easy to deploy to prevent it in the future.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2024, 01:02:26 pm »
I'd be surprised if this is a starch issue if you used finings and cold crashed. Starch doesn't form a permanent haze.

The probable source of haze is a protein-polyphenol complex. There are interesting reactions that cause proteins and polyphenols to come together and form hazes. You often need just the right amount of both for them to bind in a complex that causes permanent haze like that. If you find some wheat malt never causes it, that's the easy route to avoid this problem. You can also conduct a protein rest and reduce the amount of protein. There are other strategies, but one or both of these are too easy to deploy to prevent it in the future.
Yes, Whirfloc for between 7 and 8 minutes and a very quick chill because it's so damn cold here lately.  Weyermann wheat created clear beers and this Briess White Wheat did not (this time) and I'm not necessarily blaming the brand and type of wheat but I brew so much and I brew the same recipes over and over with the same processes that pointing to the specific ingredient seems like the only logical explanation.  And yes this was malted white wheat, not unmalted.  I have brewed enough to take a guess that this beer will not clear even with an addition of a gel solution.  It will be permanently hazy until the last pint is tapped.    ???
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Offline Megary

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2024, 01:52:53 pm »
I'd be surprised if this is a starch issue if you used finings and cold crashed. Starch doesn't form a permanent haze.

The probable source of haze is a protein-polyphenol complex. There are interesting reactions that cause proteins and polyphenols to come together and form hazes. You often need just the right amount of both for them to bind in a complex that causes permanent haze like that. If you find some wheat malt never causes it, that's the easy route to avoid this problem. You can also conduct a protein rest and reduce the amount of protein. There are other strategies, but one or both of these are too easy to deploy to prevent it in the future.
Yes, Whirfloc for between 7 and 8 minutes and a very quick chill because it's so damn cold here lately.  Weyermann wheat created clear beers and this Briess White Wheat did not (this time) and I'm not necessarily blaming the brand and type of wheat but I brew so much and I brew the same recipes over and over with the same processes that pointing to the specific ingredient seems like the only logical explanation.  And yes this was malted white wheat, not unmalted.  I have brewed enough to take a guess that this beer will not clear even with an addition of a gel solution.  It will be permanently hazy until the last pint is tapped.    ???

Think it might be worth shooting an e-mail to Briess...see what they think?  I'll bet they give you some good info.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2024, 02:01:26 pm »
Think it might be worth shooting an e-mail to Briess...see what they think?  I'll bet they give you some good info.
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Offline denny

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2024, 03:10:27 pm »
As long as you have more (or the same) percentage of pilsner/2-row, I thought it was a non-issue.  There was more pilsner malt in this beer than wheat and it would always be that way for me.  I have always just done a single-infusion mash and the cloudy wheat beers are in the vast minority .. these beers usually come out clear.  If there is a threshold for the mash temp on a high-percentage wheat grist, I do not know about it.

You're thinking of conversion. Gelatinization is what makes the enzymes available for conversion. I think your temp was fine for that.
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Offline coolman26

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2024, 04:03:57 pm »
I’ve had this issue with Briess white wheat. I’ve used Rahr without issue. I generally avoid Briess when I can. I’ve always used domestic wheat, so can’t give an opinion on that.
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Offline tommymorris

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Wheat ...
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2024, 04:13:10 pm »
I find Briess to be a high quality maltster. I have always liked their malts.

That said I have not made many wheat beers so I can’t speak specifically to their White Wheat malt.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2024, 08:59:47 pm by tommymorris »

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2024, 07:33:26 am »
I’ve had this issue with Briess white wheat. I’ve used Rahr without issue. I generally avoid Briess when I can. I’ve always used domestic wheat, so can’t give an opinion on that.
Thanks for that.  I was anti-Briess for awhile but somewhere in there Label Peelers was selling some of their various pilsner malts at crazy cheap prices and I bought a few sacks while keeping my fingers crossed and those beers came out nicely.  I think I would continue to use this Briess White Wheat in recipes where the wheat was 10% of the grist, etc. and make a note that higher percentages should be a different wheat.  I'm sure there would be more homework to do to find the specific issue but if I try another wheat and see better results that would be good enough for me. 
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Offline chumley

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2024, 10:07:29 am »
Just throwing out a data point. A friend of mine is a farmer in eastern Montana. Years ago I took some of his white winter wheat, milled it into flour in a Vitamix blender, and used it in a 65% pilsner/35% unmalted wheat pilsner. The beer turned out brilliantly clear.

I recall that he said that this white winter wheat was pretty cheap on the open market because of the low protein content. The red Durham wheat grown over in North Dakota had a higher protein content and fetched a higher price on the market because of that among other reasons, as it is prized for making pasta.

Offline coolman26

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2024, 02:02:58 pm »
I had some issues with their 2-Row years ago.  I hadn’t brewed with Briess for years until now. My local only carries Briess, so I have a couple sacks of it. Not sure what it is about their wheat. Could be variety, or where it’s grown. I almost never brew wheat beers. I’ve had good luck with Rahr and CMC, so I try to use those.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2024, 09:19:33 am »
This beer is finishing up and then I'll run it off into the keg and add a gel solution.  I assume the gel will be strictly a formality and that the beer WILL NOT be clear and I am anticipating that.  It's true that not all beers are brilliantly clear.  I see plenty of people drinking Blue Moon which looks like dirty dishwater to me but that's how it goes.  I'll have some lemon wedges in the pub fridge and I'll drink this beer out of a German ceramic stein so I can't see it.  :D  Cheers Beerheads. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Wheat ...
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2024, 08:52:43 am »
I won't know for awhile but .. I ran this beer off to the keg yesterday.  The fermenter I use is sort of translucent and as I looked at the beer in there it looked clear, to my surprise.  I wasn't convinced so I ran it off and at the end I went to harvest the yeast and there was maybe 1/4" or so of beer on top of the yeast and indeed it looked clear.  I put the keg in the fridge and today I added a gel solution and started force-carbing it.  If it's clear it would surprise me.  It seemed like a stubborn haze that would not go away but it's a good reminder not to jump to conclusions .. which I have in the past.  More later.  Cheers Beerheads. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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