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Author Topic: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?  (Read 1084 times)

Offline Finn Berger

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2024, 11:44:27 pm »
 - and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.

Offline chumley

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2024, 03:54:26 pm »
Keep in mind that Pilsner Urquell supposedly "boils" at a low simmer

For three hours, I was told at the brewery tour 20 years ago.

Offline Richard

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2024, 05:07:00 pm »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.
Original Gravity - that would be Newton's

Offline Megary

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2024, 06:01:39 pm »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

I’m not here to stick up for Brulosophy, but certainly some things matter.  Maybe just not as many things as homebrewers think, or hope for, or wish would matter. 

Sort by p value.
https://brulosophy.com/projects/exbeeriments/

I do agree that there is a high level of entertainment value there.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2024, 11:32:39 pm »
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

I have no problem at all with the underlying nature of the blog. It's a series of side by side tests that represent a single datum point based upon a single experiment with a single brewing set up compared by a group of people analogous to the kind of people likely to drink a friend's homebrew. If you have reasonably good brewing procedures and you know how to brew on your system, it is likely true in many cases that the minor issues homebrewers agonize over probably do not make meaningful differences for the average craft beer drinker. The window dressing of statistical language is silly and causes people to treat the results of their very casual experiments as scientifically conclusive.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline denny

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2024, 08:08:10 am »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

I’m not here to stick up for Brulosophy, but certainly some things matter.  Maybe just not as many things as homebrewers think, or hope for, or wish would matter. 

Sort by p value.
https://brulosophy.com/projects/exbeeriments/

I do agree that there is a high level of entertainment value there.

Gee, if only someone would write a book about figuring out what matters and what doesn't...
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2024, 09:02:47 am »

Offline ScallyWag

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2024, 12:39:22 pm »
I'm glad someone resurrected this thread (I am the original poster, btw), as I have finally had a chance to sample the 2 brews made with this non-boiling kettle. 

Both are still young and still not in the expected drinking window yet (both are lagers) but both taste quite nice already.  Relieved, and even a little bit impressed at the rauchbier I just tried today.  (The other was a dunkel.)

I should make it clear that neither of these really reached even low-boil stage.  The surface of the wort was almost smooth, no bubbles nor ripples nor even waves.  You could see the convection / movement subsurface, it was moving quickly but smooth surface.  No hot break.  It really should be hotter, I still think, but the final result was very good beer, no DMS, hops well integrated, maybe not as clear as prior beers (not an issue for me) but flavor is excellent.

Power bill was reasonable for the longer boil, so I am fine with continuing down this road with the electric kettle and leaving the old propane turkey frier as a backup.  It may make my boils longer quite a bit longer than they had been on the propane burner, but no big deal.  Maybe not quite as crystal clear but I'm ok with that.  It's delicious beer, bottom line.  I guess reaching actual boil isn't that important if you're close enough. 

Relaxing, not worrying [anymore], having a very tasty homebrew. 

Offline Megary

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2024, 02:53:16 pm »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

I’m not here to stick up for Brulosophy, but certainly some things matter.  Maybe just not as many things as homebrewers think, or hope for, or wish would matter. 

Sort by p value.
https://brulosophy.com/projects/exbeeriments/

I do agree that there is a high level of entertainment value there.

Gee, if only someone would write a book about figuring out what matters and what doesn't...

Guaranteed best seller.

Offline denny

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2024, 03:10:39 pm »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

I’m not here to stick up for Brulosophy, but certainly some things matter.  Maybe just not as many things as homebrewers think, or hope for, or wish would matter. 

Sort by p value.
https://brulosophy.com/projects/exbeeriments/

I do agree that there is a high level of entertainment value there.

Gee, if only someone would write a book about figuring out what matters and what doesn't...

Guaranteed best seller.

Unfortunately not. The conclusion I draw is that homebrewers don't want to make their lives easier.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Finn Berger

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2024, 03:36:51 am »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

That definitely is not the general conclusion. And even when the tests give a negative as result, as they often do, they do not claim they've proved anything. Of course you can never prove anything, except in mathematics, so that goes without saying, but they never have claimed that what they do can aspire to the same validity as ordinary science.

All they do is set up an experiment, being - as far as I can tell - quite open about the details and procedures, and about the method for gathering and evaluating the answers. I don't see what more you can demand. They give us solid ground for forming our own opinions about their results, and that makes me happy.

As for boiling experiments, Marshall Schott has once sent in samples to a laboratory for measuring DMS values - which confirmed the sensory evaluation from the panel.

I can add this article from the German Braumagazin: https://braumagazin.de/article/bierfehler-des-quartals-dimethylsulfid-dms/ It refers to German research, and table 3 there - which I think is from one of Narziss' books (they ought to have given a more precise reference :() - seems to me to give a fairly good explanation of why you can have those short boiling times that Schott uses, and still not get DMS above threshold values. That's a bit of hard science, isn't it;).




Offline Finn Berger

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Re: Weak boil, not quite bubbling; is it enough?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2024, 03:54:47 am »
- and of course there is an exbeeriment on this :): https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

No difference between the beers tested was detected. No DMS.

They've also tested boiling with the lid on: https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/boil-vigor-weak-vs-strong-in-a-german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/ Same result there.

Of course these tests do not prove anything, as the brülosophers always point out, too. But they sure give some stuff for thought.
It seems that the general conclusion from these exbeeriments is that NOTHING matters. I am a hard scientist and believe in testing and measurements, but I am skeptical of their results. They are often entertaining, though.

I’m not here to stick up for Brulosophy, but certainly some things matter.  Maybe just not as many things as homebrewers think, or hope for, or wish would matter. 

Sort by p value.
https://brulosophy.com/projects/exbeeriments/

I do agree that there is a high level of entertainment value there.

Gee, if only someone would write a book about figuring out what matters and what doesn't...

Guaranteed best seller.

Unfortunately not. The conclusion I draw is that homebrewers don't want to make their lives easier.

hehe - I guess I might have a simpler life if I just quit homebrewing. But as that is out of the question, I'm very much for making that homebrewing life easier. And the most important part of that, is learning not to worry about the things that really does not matter. Thanks a lot to both you and Drew, and Marshall Schott and his gang, for helping me there. It has made both my life and my beer better:).

Boiling is a good example, I think. I used to worry about whether my boil was rolling enough, and I sat drinking far too much coffee while waiting for those 90 minute pilsner boils to come to an end. Now I boil for 60 minutes, because that matches my need for coffee perfectly, and I'm quite happy to have nothing more than a simmer if I need to boil a double batch.