Author Topic: CFC to Whirlpool question  (Read 1553 times)

Offline jimbo44

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
CFC to Whirlpool question
« on: October 13, 2010, 03:03:08 PM »
I have a chillzilla CFC that I have been using for a year with great success.  I am lucky to have cold ground water and it will chill wort to 65 no problem.  I recently set my boil kettle up to whirlpool.  I have the wort run through the chiller into a pump and back into the kettle at an angle.  I know others have done this and results vary, but I have been having great success.  My wort is cooled down fairly quickly and haven't noticed an increase in DMS or lack of late hop addition aromas. 
My question:  Do any of you chemists out there know if cooling the wort to 65 and then pumping back into wort that is basically 212 can negatively effect enzymes?  the overall wort cools down pretty fast so this only happens for the first 5-10 mins, but can cooled wort being reheated have an effect on enzymes or anything else for that matter?  Will the late hop additions being cooled and then re-heated be driven off or further isomerised.  Thanks in advance.
"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
-Humphrey Bogart

Offline euge

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7214
  • Estilo Casero
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 04:16:07 PM »
I'm no chemist but I don't think enzymes matter at that point. As to the other questions don't know. I would like to know also.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman

Offline dogismycopilot

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 04:26:57 PM »
I believe all of the enzymes are denatured by the time the wort comes to a boil.  I don't know whether there are any other possible negative impacts, though.

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8130
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 10:40:34 PM »
Re: enzymes, they are basically all denatured by the end of the boil.  Any that are not denatured or that are refolded by quenching will not be hurt by heating them up again.  And AFAIK there are no enzymes in the wort post-boil that are relevant for fermentation.

For the hop question, the easiest way to think about it since you are recirculating is to think of the whole system as a single uniform temp.  Acids are still being isomerized and volatile compounds will be driven off in the kettle and will continue to be until the temp drops below the threshold.  In other words heating that small amount from 65F to 200F will not drive off more volatiles than just keeping it at 200F would. It either does or does not volatilize at some rate at 200F, how long it stays at that temp is what you need to worry about, not how quickly it gets to 200F.

You're chilling faster than many, so RDWHAHB.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline phillamb168

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2334
  • Lardy, France
    • View Profile
    • My Job
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 01:57:49 AM »
Sorry to hijack the thread, but could someone explain to me why one might whirlpool? I've seen references to it a lot lately and am unsure of exactly what it contributes to the brewing process - is it for late hops additions?
I'm on twitter: phillamb168
----
morticaixavier for governing committee!

Offline jeffy

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2440
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 04:09:27 AM »
Sorry to hijack the thread, but could someone explain to me why one might whirlpool? I've seen references to it a lot lately and am unsure of exactly what it contributes to the brewing process - is it for late hops additions?
The main reason is to pool all the trub material into a cone-shaped pile in the center of the kettle, away from the outlet spigot so you can drain wort without a lot of hop and break material.
Some pro brewers use it as a time to add hop flavor and aroma as a very late addition.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline phillamb168

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2334
  • Lardy, France
    • View Profile
    • My Job
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 04:27:14 AM »
Ah, makes sense! Thanks! Maybe I'll give it a shot this weekend.
I'm on twitter: phillamb168
----
morticaixavier for governing committee!

Offline Matt B

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 07:55:12 AM »
I do the same thing.

The enzyme portion's already been covered.
DMS: as already stated, you're safe.
hop isomerization: you will continue to get some hop isomerization and break down of the essential oils of your aroma hops, I have noticed this, it's not horribly bad, and usually only add my aroma hops once I've begun to cool.

the beer overall, clarity, etc, I have no idea if this is detrimental to it or not. I do have issues with clarity, but I've always had issues with clarity before I started doing the recirc. I haven't had any issues with overall flavor or head retention.

And now to hijack the thread as well: my whirlpool lacks much whirlpool foo. I do 10g batches. The inlet to the keggle is at the top, I do have some copper bits to get it further down, into the wort by at least 4 inches or so (avoid hot side aeration as much as I can) and I do notice *some* circular motion, but not much, and I rather doubt just how effective it is, as at the end, I still have a fairly uniform amount of break and hop material across my false bottom. I try to stir it up and help the whirlpool out, but not to much effect.

So I'm curious as to how much movement you see, what pump you're using how far up/down your inlet is in your kettle, and what's the height difference between the top most point of your inlet and your pump. Me, I've got a march pump (I forget the model, the basic non-self-priming ones), pumps through the morebeer chillzilla which is maybe a foot above the pump, into the kettle which is probably another 3-4 feet up.


Offline wingnut

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Plainwell MI
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 09:18:52 AM »

So I'm curious as to how much movement you see, what pump you're using how far up/down your inlet is in your kettle, and what's the height difference between the top most point of your inlet and your pump. Me, I've got a march pump (I forget the model, the basic non-self-priming ones), pumps through the morebeer chillzilla which is maybe a foot above the pump, into the kettle which is probably another 3-4 feet up.

Two modifications that may be needed... the intlet to the pump (I am assuming thorugh a ball valve in the kettle), you may try an elbow inside the kettle to pull in the wort along the wall, parallel to the bottom of the kettle.  Also, the inlet you have (4" below the surface) bend that so that it is putting wort back into the kettle horizontally along the kettle wall.  That should increase the spinning motion.  Also, 4in below the surface may be a bit much.  Placeing it higher (say 2in below the wort line) will make the surface spin faster. 

I personally, just take a spoon to my 5 gallon batch and stir it  until the wort is spinning at about one rev per half second or so.  I do this after I have placed it on a table so that when everything is settled, I do not disturb it.  I then wait about a half hour for the particles to drop down.  Then, as I siphon, I do not siphon from the very bottom to start with. Instead I start siphoning about half way down and work slowly toward the bottom as the wort line drops.  I have found that this disturbs the cone of derbis the least. 

Another effect of how well the cone forms has to do with kettle proportions.  My kettle is twice as tall as it is wide... a change in height to width ratio will have an effect on the cone formation.

Good luck!


-- Wingnut - Cheers!

Offline jimbo44

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 09:42:40 AM »
I tend to look at it a little different.  From the reasearch I've done on whirlpooling it doesn't have to be a really fast whirlpool.  My inlet is at the top of the boil kettle.  A 1/2" stainless still tube goes from there and drops straight down to about 6 inches from the bottom.  It then makes another 90 degree turn so that it rests right on the wall of the kettle and pushes the wort in a circular motion as it coms out.  The pick up tube is U shaped and pulls wort from the wall of the kettle right where the wall starts to transition to the base.  The wort leaves the kettle and runs through the chiller directly below the kettle.  It then drops another foot to the pump (march 809 I believe) and is pumped back up to the kettle inlet.  I don't worry as much about how fast the top is spinning.  I worry about the main body of fluid and how fast it is spinning.  I let it whirlpool until the wort reaches about 70 then I give it a 20 min rest.  I then let gravity pull it back through the chiller for a final cooling and into the carboy.  I normally leave alot of hot break and a fair amount of cold break behind.  I do wind up with some cold break into the carboy but that's ok with me and some believe it actually carries some good nutrients for the yeast.  Sometimes if I'm brewing a light lager I will go one step further and let the cold break settle completely, then rack to a second carboy before pitching my yeast. 
Note:  If I am using whole hops I use hop bags to prevent them being able to get caught in the chiller, pump, etc....  at the begining of whirlpool I pull them out so that they will not interfere with the whirlpooling.  Thats just what I do.
"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
-Humphrey Bogart

Offline scoots511

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 09:50:25 AM »
Sorry to hijack the thread, but could someone explain to me why one might whirlpool? I've seen references to it a lot lately and am unsure of exactly what it contributes to the brewing process - is it for late hops additions?
The main reason is to pool all the trub material into a cone-shaped pile in the center of the kettle, away from the outlet spigot so you can drain wort without a lot of hop and break material.
Some pro brewers use it as a time to add hop flavor and aroma as a very late addition.


I have an immersion chiller and I use the whirlpool so I don't have to constantly move the immersion chiller around to ensure a quick cool time.  This is in addition to the reason of getting the trub into the middle of the kettle.

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8130
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 12:40:59 PM »
And now to hijack the thread as well: my whirlpool lacks much whirlpool foo.
I think you should stir it really hard at flameout, and then start chilling.  It will help the whirlpool form, and even if it slows down it will help form a cone of particles in the center of the kettle.  It should help.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline jeffy

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2440
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2010, 12:55:05 PM »
And now to hijack the thread as well: my whirlpool lacks much whirlpool foo.
I think you should stir it really hard at flameout, and then start chilling.  It will help the whirlpool form, and even if it slows down it will help form a cone of particles in the center of the kettle.  It should help.
I do this, too.  A real good stir a few minutes after flameout and before whirlpooling keeps the stuff from clogging up the pump and chiller.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline euge

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7214
  • Estilo Casero
    • View Profile
Re: CFC to Whirlpool question
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2010, 05:05:20 PM »
I went to hop bags. Clogging problem solved. However, If I were to brew a lager then whirlpooling the trub would be more important to me.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman