Author Topic: Pils-friendly Water chemistry  (Read 2506 times)

Offline roguejim

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Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« on: October 13, 2010, 07:05:08 PM »
If you wanted to make this water more suitable to a German Pils, what would you do for a 7gal batch?

Na...8
K....<1
Ca...17
Mg...6
Total Hardness...68

NO3-N...1.3
S04-S...<1
Cl...2

C03...<1
HC03...93
Total Alkalinity...77

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 07:54:41 PM »
I would increase the Ca and cut the HCO3.
Maybe use some RO water to drop the HCO3 and some CaCl2 and Gypsum to raise the Ca.

I used RO water and salts to make a profile like this, and it worked really well for a crisp N German Pils.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes#Pilsner_water


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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 08:03:08 PM »
I'd dilute 50-50, then add equal parts CaSO4 and CaCl2 to get the calcium back up to 50 ppm. ~0.3 g/gal each should be about right.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 10:23:26 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree.  For a German pils, that much carbonate is not at all out of line.  I would add calcium sulfate to get you up to 50-150 ppm Ca (depending on how much SO4 you want), but nothing else.  Make that beer first, then decide how you want to tweak the recipe and/or water.  YMMV
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Offline roguejim

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 12:13:39 AM »
On my judges scoresheet, under Overall Impression:

"Tightly made example.  A bit less sweetness by using a touch of sulfate of chloride may help...I prefer drier examples like Trumer..."


Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 12:29:56 AM »
On my judges scoresheet, under Overall Impression:

"Tightly made example.  A bit less sweetness by using a touch of sulfate of chloride may help...I prefer drier examples like Trumer..."
Pretty sure that should say "or chloride", but adding chloride tends to increase the perception of sweetness - so if you're looking to please this judge then you should add CaSO4 to add to the perception of dryness.

Have you gotten similar feedback from other judges?  And what do you think of it?
Tom Schmidlin

Offline blatz

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 06:48:14 AM »
I'm going to have to disagree.  For a German pils, that much carbonate is not at all out of line.  I would add calcium sulfate to get you up to 50-150 ppm Ca (depending on how much SO4 you want), but nothing else.  Make that beer first, then decide how you want to tweak the recipe and/or water.  YMMV

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Online narvin

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 07:35:50 AM »
I agree that you want to add some sulfate and chloride to the water.  With that much bicarbonate, you might also want to add some acid malt (2%-3% of the grist) to bring the pH down.

More info:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 01:48:45 PM by narvin »
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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 08:14:38 AM »
Have you gotten similar feedback from other judges?  And what do you think of it?

I know Jim, and he's only gotten feedback from one judge.  I agree with you, Tom, I wouldn't make any big changes based on this single comment.   I advised him to try a couple different things and compare the results based on his own tastes.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 12:00:53 PM »
I agree with you, Tom
Wait, let me change my answer . . .  ;D
Tom Schmidlin

Offline Kit B

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 12:25:54 PM »
Add calcium, sulfate & chloride.
You've nearly got a good pilsner water.
Make sure to keep that magnesium down where it is.

Try to keep a nice balance between the sulfate & chloride.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 12:34:21 PM by Kit B »
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Offline roguejim

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 01:33:21 PM »
On my judges scoresheet, under Overall Impression:

"Tightly made example.  A bit less sweetness by using a touch of sulfate of chloride may help...I prefer drier examples like Trumer..."
Pretty sure that should say "or chloride", but adding chloride tends to increase the perception of sweetness - so if you're looking to please this judge then you should add CaSO4 to add to the perception of dryness.

Have you gotten similar feedback from other judges?  And what do you think of it?

Having had a Trumer yesterday, my pils is too sweet, at least for my tastes.
Here is the grain bill that was based on an NHC recipe from the Jamil Show.

Batch Size (Gal):        12.00    Wort Size (Gal):   12.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       19.38
Anticipated OG:          1.048    Plato:             11.80
Anticipated SRM:           3.8
Anticipated IBU:          44.5
Brewhouse Efficiency:       80 %
Wort Boil Time:             60    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:       2.00    Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:   14.00    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.041    SG          10.17  Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 85.2    16.50 lbs. Pilsener                      Belgium        1.037      2
  9.7     1.88 lbs. Munich Malt                   Germany        1.037      8
  5.2     1.00 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt                      1.033      2

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2010, 02:16:21 PM »
If it's too sweet, you have a number of options.  Add some CaSO4, based on your water I think it'll be a good thing.  Drop your mash temp, that will help it dry out.  Cut the carapils a bit.

Any of those things will help lower the perception of sweetness, but if you're trying to dial it in I'd change one thing at a time.

Let us know how it goes.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline roguejim

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2010, 05:33:27 PM »
Thanks.

I'm considering dropping the carapils altogether.

I'm currently mashing at 148F, for 90mins.  Maybe drop the mash temp to 146F?

How much gypsum would you add for a 7gal batch?

I'm not saying I'll be making all of these changes all at once.  Just getting all of my options before me.

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Pils-friendly Water chemistry
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2010, 08:28:12 PM »
I would not go below 148F.  At this point, I'd say cut the carapils to 3%.

For the sulfate, it's your call.  You want the Ca in the mash to be between 50 and 150 ppm.  If you go for the high end of that you're looking at 2.2 grams per gallon of mash water.  That gives you ~325 ppm of SO4 in the mash, but that's not important - if you don't treat your sparge water that number will come back down.

I wouldn't go for it all at once though, I would start with 1 gram per gallon and reduce the carapils and see how it turns out.  But that's me. :)
Tom Schmidlin