[tschmidlin]

So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know. 

[euge]

So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know. 

It helps any risen bread. Doesn't mean you have to use it though. With a mature active poolish you can create extra gluten. But try the gluten and don't proof for so long. Punch it down sooner if you need to.

I like to take the dough to just short of "jiggly" if that makes sense. 

[tschmidlin]

So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know. 

It helps any risen bread. Doesn't mean you have to use it though. With a mature active poolish you can create extra gluten. But try the gluten and don't proof for so long. Punch it down sooner if you need to.

I like to take the dough to just short of "jiggly" if that makes sense. 

Well, I've tossed the culture anyway - it felt like I was wasting too much flour and not getting enough bread out of it.  I might start it up again some day.  Thanks for the tip.

[MrNate]

Mainly, gluten helps hold in the co2 cause the dough is stretchier, resulting in a better spring in the oven and a better crumb.

Ok, dumb question time - What's "crumb" and how much oven spring should I be getting?

[denny]

What did the gluten do for it?

It really helped the hole structure in the bread, and as Euge mentioned the overall texture.

[denny]

So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know. 

Tom, I think it helps any bread, sourdough or not.  I started using it before I went to sourdough, and it really helped even the regular yeast breads.

[MrNate]

Are you guys using AP flour and adding gluten or adding gluten on top of using bread flour?

[tschmidlin]

So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know.  

Tom, I think it helps any bread, sourdough or not.  I started using it before I went to sourdough, and it really helped even the regular yeast breads.

Are you already using bread/high gluten flour and adding it to that?  Is this something they should have at a regular grocery store or do I need to head to Whole Foods or PCC?  It's definitely time to make some bread

<edit> MrNate posted first, but I have the same question about the flour.

[MrNate]

I think my wife bought some gluten at the grocery store when she was on her bread machine kick, but I got a sack of bread flour from Costco that I'd been using... I was definitely under the impression that it was one or the other. Definitely curious to hear the answer.

[EHall]

If you choose the right flour to begin with you don't need to add the extra gluten... King Arthur is a great place to start to find the right one. They also have alot of cool stuff that can be used in brewing...

[denny]

Are you already using bread/high gluten flour and adding it to that?  Is this something they should have at a regular grocery store or do I need to head to Whole Foods or PCC?  It's definitely time to make some bread

<edit> MrNate posted first, but I have the same question about the flour.

I use King Arthur bread flour, which is a high protein flour.  If I could find it easily, I'd use their bread machine flour, which is even higher in protein.  It works really well, but I got even better results by adding the vital wheat gluten.  BTW, I use Bob's Red Mill for that.  You can find both the KA bread flour and the Bob's VWG at Fred Meyer.

[tschmidlin]

Are you already using bread/high gluten flour and adding it to that?  Is this something they should have at a regular grocery store or do I need to head to Whole Foods or PCC?  It's definitely time to make some bread

<edit> MrNate posted first, but I have the same question about the flour.

I use King Arthur bread flour, which is a high protein flour.  If I could find it easily, I'd use their bread machine flour, which is even higher in protein.  It works really well, but I got even better results by adding the vital wheat gluten.  BTW, I use Bob's Red Mill for that.  You can find both the KA bread flour and the Bob's VWG at Fred Meyer.

Thanks Denny, I'll give it a try.

[euge]

I like the King Arthur too. Supposedly bread flour doesn't need extra gluten but it doesn't hurt to add some anyway IMO.

As Denny pointed out "crumb" is texture. I shoot for lots of big holes and firm cohesive texture. All purpose flour will result in a fragile crumb unless you really work it or add gluten. If you want more of a "wonder bread" type of crumb then don't let it proof for as long and don't make a poolish. You want a quick rise and a drier dough.

Oven spring... I want as much as I can get LOL. Gluten helps keep in the co2 which will expand in the oven blowing up the dough even more before it sets. This is where it can get tricky. Proof too long and it'll collapse in the oven or when you handle it. If you don't slash your dough deep enough it'll retard the spring and maybe rip your loaf open since the outside cooks before the inside creating a type of shell that compresses the expanding dough inside.

Baguettes work well because they can expand more fully before the exterior crust becomes rigid. Conversely, a big loaf has a lot of mass so in cross section you'll see fine bubbles in the center and outwardly they'll get bigger. The loaf won't spring effectively and maybe even rip.

I shoot for a dough that is very elastic and fairly sticky. If it can be handled easily without extra flour then it's probably too dry and will result in a denser loaf.

It's like brewing. One's technique matters and I only covered part of it.

[denny]

I like the King Arthur too. Supposedly bread flour doesn't need extra gluten but it doesn't hurt to add some anyway IMO.

All I can say is that it made a BIG difference for me.

I shoot for a dough that is very elastic and fairly sticky. If it can be handled easily without extra flour then it's probably too dry and will result in a denser loaf.

It's like brewing. One's technique matters and I only covered part of it.

That's exactly what I learned about dough texture through trial and error.  For the first year or so I was baking bread, the dough was too dry and I couldn't get the texture I was after.  Then I accidentally got it wetter than normal one time and ended up with exactly what I was going for.  And it is a lot like brewing...it takes some time and experience to really learn what techniques produce what results.

[tschmidlin]

I'll try wetter and gluten.