Author Topic: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost  (Read 5712 times)

Offline ndcube

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 07:48:53 AM »
One thing I've noticed batch sparging is that when I slow down the runoff it gets clear.  When I speed it up it gets cloudy.

I usually let it go fast and have the paricles settle out after the boil.

I haven't experimented yet to see if there is an effect on efficiency or flavor of the finished beer.  Would be interesting though.

Offline bo_gator

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 06:03:45 PM »
Back when I use to batch sparge I did it the Denny way and drained the mash-tun as fast as I could, but the wort was clear. What are you using as a filter?
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Offline MDixon

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 05:26:58 AM »
Bo - 50 to 58 IS pretty significant. Of course consistency matters more than efficiency, but let's say that 12 gallon batch was 22 lb of grain for your normal 1.050. That would be ~75% efficiency. Move it up to 1.058 and you now are ~87%. I'd call a 12% increase substantial!

I've never found a really long sparge to be useful. My MO is kinda a batch sparge saddled onto a fly. After mashout and vorlauf I runoff the tun till I see the grainbed, then I slow the flow slightly and start fly sparging. Generally I add water at mashout and probably remove 1/3 of the boil volume with the initial draining of the tun.

stout - I haven't made a really big beer in quite some time but my notes show a 70% efficiency on a 1.125 Scottish 140/- and 65%+ on a 1.102 Bigfoot Clone. You may want to crush finer, 44% and 55% sound really low.
FWIW - I got 64% on a no-sparge (single draining of the tun) 1.054 ESB.
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Offline denny

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 09:27:50 AM »
One thing I've noticed batch sparging is that when I slow down the runoff it gets clear.  When I speed it up it gets cloudy.

I start out slow.  After a qt. or so it clears up and then I go full out.

I usually let it go fast and have the paricles settle out after the boil.

I haven't experimented yet to see if there is an effect on efficiency or flavor of the finished beer.  Would be interesting though.

As far as I've been able to tell after 350+ batches, cloudy runoff has no effect on the flavor or appearance of the finished beer.
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Offline lonnie mac

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 09:40:12 AM »
I don't care about what everyone says, fly sparging has gotten me higher points all the time.  What it really boils down to is TIME.  When I FS, it takes 1 hr.  BS takes about 20 min.  The point differential is small.

According to the above information on 12 gallon final volume batches I need to take 80 minutes to fly sparge to hit the average flow rate from the chart. I do not mind the extra time fly sparging takes because I can clean & sanitize a lot of fermenter/kegs and rack a lot of beer in 80 minutes. I have a very busy brewery, so I never find myself just sitting around watching/waiting on a sparge...YMMV

Include me in the FS camp as well... I usually sparge for a bit over an hour. Longer has always gotten me better numbers. Likewise I have plenty to do on brew day during the sparge. And after all, it is a brew DAY! :)

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 03:47:56 PM »
There seems to be a lot of confusion over what constitutes a "sparge".  In my world, I run off the mash.  I may have added water to the mash before that runoff, but I consider that a mash addition, and not a sparge addition.  Then, after the tun is drained, I add what I consider my sparge water.  I do that only that one time unless I'm using so much grain that I can't get enough water in.  In that case, after that first "sparge" is drained, I add more water and drain again.  But I seldom need to do that.  There are some who will take the single sparge addition I do and divide it in half and add "sparge" water twice.  I've found so little benefit in doing that that it's not worth the minimal time or effort it takes, as far as I'm concerned.

Denny, please remind me how long you normally stir after you've added your sparge water, and how long you let the grain bed settle after stirring, before running off the sparge.  I've been stirring for about five minutes (usually 25 - 35 lbs malt for 10 - 12 gallon batches) using a big mash paddle and waiting for at least 10 minutes after that before running off.

Offline denny

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2009, 03:55:33 PM »
Denny, please remind me how long you normally stir after you've added your sparge water,

Maybe a minute or two...

and how long you let the grain bed settle after stirring, before running off the sparge. 

No time at all....I start running of right after stirring in the sparge water

I've been stirring for about five minutes (usually 25 - 35 lbs malt for 10 - 12 gallon batches) using a big mash paddle and waiting for at least 10 minutes after that before running off.

I usually use more in the 16 lb. of malt for 5 gal. range.  You may need to stir a bit longer with your volume, but maybe not.  The key isn't the amount of time, but just making sure you get the water and grain thoroughly mixed.
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Offline brewsumore

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2009, 04:08:58 PM »
Thanks!  I think I'll stir a bit less time and see how it goes - it seems to improve my efficiency if I stir well.

Offline denny

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2009, 04:22:27 PM »
All I can tell you is that it doesn't make a difference in efficiency in my setup.  The last batch I brewed had such a crazy high efficiency (according to Promash) that I'm afraid to mention it....
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline brewsumore

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2009, 04:28:49 PM »
Yeah - I've seen your numbers - off the top of my head I recall you get 83% brewhouse efficiency for 1.065.  I've been getting around 72%, and my last beer was 1.081 OG and I got 70% efficiency - WITH a blue cooler.

Offline bonjour

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2009, 04:39:00 PM »
While you can use that study to glean some general info, the study was performed on one system, with the grain bills and crush, false bottom etc. on that one system.  If you want to know what your system is doing you will need to measure it and perform a similar study.

or

you could just brew the Denny way.

Fred
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline bo_gator

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2009, 06:57:34 AM »
While you can use that study to glean some general info, the study was performed on one system, with the grain bills and crush, false bottom etc. on that one system.  If you want to know what your system is doing you will need to measure it and perform a similar study.

or

you could just brew the Denny way.

Fred

The best thing about the Denny brew system  is that it makes going all-grain easy and less intimidating. If it had not been for Denny's old web-site (not been to the new one) I would have brewed my 30-40 extract beers and got bored with them and given up on home brewing several years ago.I will always be grateful for that :D

As much fun as it was to build the spread sheet in excel, I am working on collecting raw data for my system which hopefully will translate well across the B3 sculpture line. My last brew session of Friday my sparge pump stroked me and I was not able to get any real info from it. I had primed my sparge pump and left the mash-tun valve open while waiting on the sparge water to finish heating up, and I'll be if 2-3 gallons of wort did not flow through from the mash-tun over to the boil kettle by itself with flow control at all.  There is always next time I guess.  ;D
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Offline denny

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2009, 10:01:25 AM »
If it had not been for Denny's old web-site (not been to the new one)

Bo, I'm confused (not that that's difficult!).  The 2 websites are exactly the same....
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Offline bonjour

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2009, 10:39:13 AM »
To defend "fly/continuous" sparging. . .

Fly sparging can be either really really simple, or you can make it nuclear science, your choice.  I prefer the simple approach.
At some point I'll have to put together a website.  Has anyone done that for Batch Sparging?  ;)

My sparge arm is my right arm, literally.  I place a spaghetti strainer on top of the grain bed ad use a 2 qt plastic picture to move my sparge water from my HLT into my mash/lauter tun (10 gallon round cooler with a domed false bottom.  Palmer's book has instructions for building and designing a slotted manifold for either rectangular or round coolers.  Not quite as simple as Denny's braid, but close. 

Procedure,  I sparge with no additional water until the wort level is at/just below the grain bed.  At this point I rapidly dump (pour) sparge water into the strainer on top of the grain bed.  How much?  It doesn't matter!!  just keep water over the grain bed, anything from .5 inch to 12 inches is fine.

Sparge rate is slow enough to not channel, which is what this thread is really about.

Measuring your results will show you how fast you can sparge on your system. 

Simple yes,  but for beginners I send them to Denny's site


Fred
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AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline denny

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Re: Slowed down my sparge,and got a boost
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2009, 10:46:39 AM »
Fred, that's just the way I used to fly sparge and one of the main reasons I switched over to batch sparging when I first read about it.

And I don't think there's any need to defend any type of sparging...for God's sake, it's just a way to get sugar from grain!  :)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe