Author Topic: 109% Efficiency!  (Read 9733 times)

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2010, 12:16:44 PM »
Your logic in the second paragraph does not compute.  If I take your original 216 pts for 6 gallons, and dump a gallon of water in to the kettle, you end up with 216/7=1.031 SG (rounded up slightly).  If you get your original points in the kettle for 6 gallons and then sparge to collect one more gallon, you will get more points into the kettle than 216.   Sure the SG for the larger amount is lower, but you have more points in the kettle.  That is what some of us are trying to say.

I see another post has the same point.  Had to answer the wife's questions.

Read Kai's page, one of the best for this.
 
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Offline bluesman

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2010, 12:49:08 PM »
Mash efficiency(into the boiler) VS Brewhouse efficiency(into the fermenter)

This is how I understand efficiency.

We can talk about mash efficiency and debate the effects of the crush or mash pH. This is important for brewers in the sense of getting the most out of your grain. One must know the exact volume of water and weight of grain added to the mash tun in order to calculate the mash efficiency.

Brewhouse efficiency on the other hand is the brewing process efficiency as a whole including any losses.  Losses anywhere in your brewing system, including deadspace in the mash tun, transfer lines, pumps, and trub at the end of the mash result in lost wort. The lost wort takes sugars with it, reducing your overall brewhouse efficiency.

But both are important to the brewer.

Ron Price

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2010, 12:58:15 PM »
Ron,summed up in the graphic on page 3 or so.

http://braukaiser.com/download/Troester_NHC_2010_Efficiency.pdf
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Offline brushvalleybrewer

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2010, 01:10:22 PM »
This is the funniest thread I think I’ve ever seen.  ::)
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Offline beerocd

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2010, 01:24:49 PM »
This is the funniest thread I think I’ve ever seen.  ::)

I dunno, the BFI threads are pretty darn good. I bet he doesn't care about efficiency either.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2010, 04:45:57 PM »
Ron,summed up in the graphic on page 3 or so.

http://braukaiser.com/download/Troester_NHC_2010_Efficiency.pdf

Yes! I suppose I am just reinforcing the points made....and Kai has a very good presentation indeed.  8)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 04:48:10 PM by bluesman »
Ron Price

Offline jrskjei

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2010, 09:16:52 PM »
jrskjei: thanks, a reasonable argument presented in a civil manner. Glad you're here.
But I do disagree with a few of its points.

Using the example above, if you collect 7 gallons but at a lower gravity of 1.030 the total sugar extraction would only be 210 points instead of 216.

I assume you mean from the same mash, i.e., run off 7 gallons instead of 6.

Question: If you take your example of 6 gallons with 216 points, and add a gallon of pure water to it, you would have 7 gallons of 1.0308 wort...still 216 points. How then can you take the same 6 gallon 216 point wort, add a gallon of water to it by running that water through the lauter tun, and somehow lower the total points to 210?

I'll agree that there may be limited gain from running additional water through the lauter tun, maybe even zero sugars, but no way it'll "subtract" from what you already have, and lower the points you've already extracted.

You're right, I used the numbers in a "for example" manner.  I don't know for sure that adding another gallon would drop the gravity of the wort to 1.030, and when viewed as a total points result, there is no way to subtract points by adding water.  The point I was driving at was that when adding water to the calculation (increases efficiency), the lower gravity (decreases efficiency) balances out at some point.  And then you have to spend more time and money on propane to get to nearly the same place.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 09:39:14 PM by jrskjei »

Offline jrskjei

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2010, 09:38:06 PM »
Ron,summed up in the graphic on page 3 or so.

http://braukaiser.com/download/Troester_NHC_2010_Efficiency.pdf

Yes! I suppose I am just reinforcing the points made....and Kai has a very good presentation indeed.  8)

That is a nice piece... I hadn't seen that before.  I was thinking along the lines of what Kai has on page 19 (benefit of additional sparges quickly diminishes...)

Thanks for the discussion.  The apples to oranges comparison was at least funny, and who doesn't like to discuss beer?  If we could only keep the wives from interrupting our, um, learning. ;D

Offline MDixon

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2010, 05:25:13 AM »
I guess I'll just keep repeating the factual information.

The efficiency is the same pre-boil or post-boil. So the boil has no effect AT ALL on efficiency because sugars are conserved.

Now if you lose some wort in your hoses, that's your mismanagement, and has nothing to do with the boil. If you have to runoff more wort due to an inadequacy of gravity and have to boil the resultant volume longer, the efficiency of that wort is still the same pre and post boil.

Feel free to not take my word on it. Cool a sample of wort to the proper temp and measure the pre-boil gravity and measure the volume of wort. Repeat post boil (in the kettle). You'll find the volume x pts equal before and after the boil. You could boil it for a nanosecond or for hours and that will remain true. At some point you might boil off all the water which will make it tricky to measure the gravity, but it still would remain true ;)
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Offline tubercle

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2010, 06:05:59 AM »
This is the way Tubercle see it:

 10 pounds of grain contains 100% of the sugars.

  If during the mash and resulting run off and sparging I collect 5 gallons of wort that contains 85% of the sugars in the grain then the efficiency is 85%.

   If nothing else is done the efficiency is 85%.
  
   If this 5 gallons is boiled for 1 hour and 4 gallons of wort remains the efficiency is 85% - the specific gravity is higher but the efficiency is still 85%.

  If it is boiled down to a quart of syrup the efficiency is 85%.

  If this syrup is dumped in an Olympic size swimming pool the efficiency is 85%.

  Regardless of what happens to the original wort its not going to pull out any more of the 15% of the sugar that was left behind in the grain which is now in the mulch pile.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 06:10:28 AM by tubercle »
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Offline Mikey

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2010, 06:23:24 AM »
This is the way Tubercle see it:

 10 pounds of grain contains 100% of the sugars.

  If during the mash and resulting run off and sparging I collect 5 gallons of wort that contains 85% of the sugars in the grain then the efficiency is 85%.

   If nothing else is done the efficiency is 85%.
  
   If this 5 gallons is boiled for 1 hour and 4 gallons of wort remains the efficiency is 85% - the specific gravity is higher but the efficiency is still 85%.

  If it is boiled down to a quart of syrup the efficiency is 85%.

  If this syrup is dumped in an Olympic size swimming pool the efficiency is 85%.

  Regardless of what happens to the original wort its not going to pull out any more of the 15% of the sugar that was left behind in the grain which is now in the mulch pile.

I agree with what Tubercle has said, except the pool analogy could be flawed if someone happened to throw in a Baby Ruth candy bar.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:30:16 AM by Mikey »

Offline kerneldustjacket

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2010, 06:53:29 AM »
You're right, I used the numbers in a "for example" manner.  I don't know for sure that adding another gallon would drop the gravity of the wort to 1.030, and when viewed as a total points result, there is no way to subtract points by adding water.  The point I was driving at was that when adding water to the calculation (increases efficiency), the lower gravity (decreases efficiency) balances out at some point.  And then you have to spend more time and money on propane to get to nearly the same place.

OK...got it. I agree, there is a point where diminishing returns prompt a brewer to stop sparging or limit the number of batch sparges they run; some base it on time savings, some on cost, some on flavor/stability impact, etc.
You're giving me flashbacks to college economics -- marginal analysis and the decision to produce one more unit of output.

tubercle...that's it in a nutshell...or is that you in a nutshell? ???
Mikey...any idea what specialty grains would make a brown ale/porter taste like a Baby Ruth? Sounds interesting. :D
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Offline denny

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2010, 09:25:08 AM »
I guess I'll just keep repeating the factual information.

The efficiency is the same pre-boil or post-boil. So the boil has no effect AT ALL on efficiency because sugars are conserved.

Because Mike is right, I'll repeat what he repeated...
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Offline tygo

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2010, 10:17:47 AM »
If I can get 109 angels to dance on the top of my mash tun will it improve my efficiency?
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Offline SiameseMoose

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2010, 11:50:05 AM »
If I can get 109 angels to dance on the top of my mash tun will it improve my efficiency?

I think it's more important to get the angels to dance on my fermenter, but that's a different thread.

As the guy who started this mess, my 109% was calculated as brewhouse efficiency, meaning that's the sugars I got into the fermenter.
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