Author Topic: 109% Efficiency!  (Read 7588 times)

Offline MDixon

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2010, 11:23:17 AM »
What I did notice at both Rodenbach and Palm was a plate and frame filter press for the mash. They squeeze every last drop out they can...of course that has nothing to do with the boil  ;D
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Offline Mikey

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2010, 11:38:20 AM »
The last time I brewed I boiled twice as long. Since my gravity went up substantially, I know my efficiency did as well. :D

Offline Mikey

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2010, 12:31:57 PM »
I should give credit to those that gave me the idea of boiling twice as long. Thanks, Fred. 

Now, who's Fred?

Offline kerneldustjacket

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2010, 08:25:11 PM »
Um...a Flintstone?
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Offline Mikey

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2010, 08:47:08 PM »

Offline SiameseMoose

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2010, 05:43:09 AM »
Um...a Flintstone?

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Offline malzig

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2010, 06:42:22 AM »
So you got more sugar into the fermenter than existed in the grain?  I knew you were good, Rob!
You should go visit De Konick, in Antwerp. They claim 130%!
Like MDixon suggests, it's possible they use a mash filter system.  In that case it seems that it's not uncommon to get over 100%, even though 130% seems excessive.  If I recall correctly, Alaskan Brewing Company, which has one of the few mash filter systems that I've heard of in the US, cites in the range of 110% mash efficiency.

There was a post (sorry, can't find the actual post.  My Google-foo is weak today) on increased conversion efficiency from using both an alpha and a beta amylase rest.  That experimenter saw frequent conversion efficiencies well over 100%.  I imagine the standard deviation is pretty high in most brewing measurements, though.  (Which doesn't explain how reliably I get 87% mash efficiency...)

Online Kaiser

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2010, 07:03:27 AM »
To get better efficiency than 100% you'll need to have a more intensive mashing schedule than the congress mash that is used to determine the extract potential of the grain. After that congress mash only 1-2% of the starches have not been converted yet. To get to them you may need decoction mashing.

I don't think that the 130% efficiency number is true.

Kai


Offline jeffy

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2010, 07:20:44 AM »
So you got more sugar into the fermenter than existed in the grain?  I knew you were good, Rob!
You should go visit De Konick, in Antwerp. They claim 130%!
Like MDixon suggests, it's possible they use a mash filter system.  In that case it seems that it's not uncommon to get over 100%, even though 130% seems excessive.  If I recall correctly, Alaskan Brewing Company, which has one of the few mash filter systems that I've heard of in the US, cites in the range of 110% mash efficiency.

The 1950's era brewery in Tampa that is now Yuengling uses a mash press.  It's huge, probably 30 feet long, 15 feet wide and 10 feet tall, all folds of what appears to be some sort of cloth.  I'll have to ask what their efficiency is.
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Offline SiameseMoose

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2010, 01:29:12 PM »
De Konick grinds their grain to a fine powder, almost like bread flour. They use a very high pressure (in excess of 10,000 psi!) filter mash. I have a picture, but it's on my computer, not a website.
_____________________________________________________
Rob
I named my brewery after my cat, Moose. He's Siamese.
Primary: Belgian IPA
Kellerbier (to be cask conditioned for Memorial Day)
Secondary: 3 different batches of Flanders Red, Lambic, Alt
Lagering: none
Kegs: 18, but not all in use
Bottles: Gazillions
Next up: American Wheat with pear concentrate

Offline denny

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2010, 04:08:40 PM »
Maybe I'm just dense (okay, no maybe) but how can anyone, no matter what the process, get more than 100%?  Reminds of coaches telling their teams to give it 110%.
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Online Kaiser

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2010, 04:33:07 PM »
Maybe I'm just dense (okay, no maybe) but how can anyone, no matter what the process, get more than 100%?  Reminds of coaches telling their teams to give it 110%.

It all depends how the 100% mark is determined. In German brewing, for example, it is the weight of the grist and in this case it is impossible to get more than 100% since that would mean that weight was created.

But in our brewing we take the result from a standard mash. Most commonly the congress mash but there are also hot water extract mashes that don't involve a slow temp rise. While these mashes try to convert as much starch as they can by using a fine grind, high mash temp and high water/grist ratio they are not perfect mashes either. One can take the spent grain from a congress mash, boil it in water and add more amylase enzymes to get few more % of sugar out of them.

This is on the mashing side. Since we want to stay close, or even above 100% we cannot accept large losses during lautering which is why  >100% efficiency only seems to come up with mash filters which tend to have a near perfect lauter efficiency. This is in addition to the fact that mash filters can process pulverized grists which also tend to have a near or above perfect conversion efficiency when compared to the congress mash with a pulverized grist.

But if home brewers report close or even above 100% efficiency I agree that the culprit are either measurement errors or much better than expected extract potential from the grain.

Kai

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2010, 04:45:07 PM »
Reminds of coaches telling their teams to give it 110%.

It is possible for people to give more than 100%. If 100% is defined as the most they can give under normal circumstances. I.e the fastest one can run in a competition for example. Then if you have them perform in a life threatening condition. E.g. being chased by a bear, many will be able to run faster. This is because the body is able to unlock more resources if survival depends on it. I think I heard this on NPR once.

This is similar to mashing where the test mash is designed to estimate the extract potential under best yet realistic mashing conditions.

Kai

Offline malzig

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2010, 01:58:23 PM »
I assumed that the primary reason for greater than 100% mash efficiency from mash filter systems was the fact that the grain is left virtually dry.  I've never performed a congress mash, but from the SOP, it looks like the lauter is performed through a filter paper, but it is drained passively.  In that case, there is still absorption of water and loss of wort to the grain, no?

With a quick and rough calculation, it seems that 110-115% would be achievable, with 100% conversion efficiency, if the grain was squeezed dry from a 12 plato wort..

Online Kaiser

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Re: 109% Efficiency!
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2010, 02:36:27 PM »
The lauter efficiency of the congress mash does not matter since the extract content is determined from the gravity of the wort and it's mash thickness, which is 8 l/kg. The collected volume, and thus the amount trapped in the paper or filter cake, does not matter.

Kai