Author Topic: Palmer Spreadsheet Error  (Read 6619 times)

Offline hokerer

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2011, 10:46:49 AM »
Martin, I've been looking for pickling lime with no luck.  Where do you get it?  A grocery store?  That's where I've been looking.

I've seen at it our regular grocery stores around here.  In the section with sugar/flour/spices and such.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2011, 10:54:10 AM »
Not a surprising result.  I'm cautious about adding lye, since it could boost the sodium content too high.  But on second thought, the amount added for pH adjustment would be tiny.  The next question is where would you get food grade lye from?  I know I can get food grade lime as pickling lime. 

There is no benefit to using lye. It works as good as baking soda and. It even adds the same amount of sodium. In contrast to baking soda it consumes CO2 that is dissolved in your mash. But that should not matter.

 
Martin, I've been looking for pickling lime with no luck.  Where do you get it?  A grocery store?  That's where I've been looking.

I ordered my lye and pickling lime on-line. With the gas prices these days you easily spend the $5-10 that you spend for shipping for gas when driving around to find that.

But you may also try ethnic food stores. I believe Ca(OH)2 is used for making tortillas.

Kai

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2011, 10:59:11 AM »
Martin, I've been looking for pickling lime with no luck.  Where do you get it?  A grocery store?  That's where I've been looking.

I've seen at it our regular grocery stores around here.  In the section with sugar/flour/spices and such.

Thanks.  I'll keep looking.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2011, 11:11:17 AM »
Bear in mind that pickling lime will slowly absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form chalk.  So keep the lime in an airtight container and you might want to throw it away if it is "very old."
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Offline hokerer

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2011, 06:31:00 PM »
I've seen at it our regular grocery stores around here.  In the section with sugar/flour/spices and such.
Thanks.  I'll keep looking.

Had to hit the grocery story to pick up some goodies before the game and I double-checked.  The pickling lime was right next to the salt.  About the same size canister but light green.  $3.79 for a pound.
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Offline BrewArk

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2011, 01:06:08 PM »
I've read this thread with interest.  But I don't see the issue.  I've never used chalk (it doesn't dissolve fast enough).  If I need additional Ca it's gypsum, carbonate/bicarb it's baking soda or soda ash.  Chloride has never been a problem, but I'd add CaCl.  If there were too much of something, add some RO & back add what was needed.

I know it's difficult to add RO to drinking water supplies, but it's very doable at brewing levels. ???
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Offline johnf

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2011, 01:27:23 PM »
The issue is that mash pH is very important and so some people who don't have pH meters would like to estimate it. This turns out to be extremely difficult to do and making matters worse is that some widely used models have serious flaws.

Offline punatic

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2011, 02:30:00 PM »
I've read this thread with interest.  But I don't see the issue.  I've never used chalk (it doesn't dissolve fast enough).  If I need additional Ca it's gypsum, carbonate/bicarb it's baking soda or soda ash.  Chloride has never been a problem, but I'd add CaCl.  If there were too much of something, add some RO & back add what was needed.

I know it's difficult to add RO to drinking water supplies, but it's very doable at brewing levels. ???

I operate several MGD+ drinking water treatment sytems that are demineralized by reverse osmosis.  We blend back a portion of the feedwater (about 10%) to achieve the desired TDS content in the product water.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2011, 02:43:47 PM »
BrewArk makes a good point and doesn't use chalk, but there are brewers that do use it and are expecting it to do its job.  My point was to make sure that brewers are educated about chalk use and the limitations that some water programs had to make to accomodate chalk's limited solubility. 

Brewing water programs are using new information and making it a little more feasible for brewers to actually come close to an intended mash pH.  I noticed that EZ Water now includes grain acidity in predicting mash pH.  I am also finalizing a program that takes grain acidity a little further in assessing mashing pH.  In either case, the hope is to give regular brewers tools that they can rely on to predict their mash conditions and not absolutely have to have a pH meter. 
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Offline oldtree

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2011, 07:05:02 PM »
So, is adding CaCO3 to a mash basically useless?  It sounds like it will neither add calcium nor raise the mash pH.

Offline blatz

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2011, 07:16:50 PM »
So, is adding CaCO3 to a mash basically useless?  It sounds like it will neither add calcium nor raise the mash pH.

i am no water engineer by any stretch, but I watched my mash climb 0.3 this weekend with the addition of chalk when I realized my mash pH was too low.  so be what it may, it works, whether or not its magic dust, I'm not sure.

on that note, I'd always read to add the salts to the mash, not the strike water, as the mash (I suspect) helps increase the solubility of the salts?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 07:19:38 PM by blatz »
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2011, 07:52:44 PM »
The problem is that chalk is soluble at mash pH. And it does dissolve. At least to some extent since it does show an effect on mash pH. What is to be questioned is the amount of acid neutralization that can be achieved with undissolved chalk.

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Offline richardt

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2011, 08:01:26 PM »
I've read that, too.  
That's why I'm kind of confused by comments that people are adding brew salts to the water first (whether in the HLT or in the MLT prior to grain addition.)  

I thought I read somewhere that strike water should be added to the grains (and not the other way around) in order to prevent thermal damage to the mash enzymes.  It also makes more sense to add warmer (or cooler) water, rather than grains, in order to hit the mash target temps.

I'm also a little fuzzy on what exactly EZ water calculator means by "sparge water" addition when they seem to be saying the additions actually are put into the boil.  Can anyone clarify the reasoning behind the formula and calculations with the "sparge additions"?

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2011, 08:30:05 PM »
I'm also a little fuzzy on what exactly EZ water calculator means by "sparge water" addition when they seem to be saying the additions actually are put into the boil.  Can anyone clarify the reasoning behind the formula and calculations with the "sparge additions"?

The idea is that you don't want to add alkalinity to the sparge water (baking soda and chalk do that) which is why some brewers add the sparge water salts to the boil. If you don't add them to the boil the sparge water will dilute the salts that were added to the mash and you end up with a slightly softer overall water profile.

I think that you can also add all the salts to the mash and none to the sparge water. Adding salts to the sparge water doesn't do much harm either, in my experience at least.

Kai

Offline kerneldustjacket

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Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2011, 09:50:56 AM »
 The next question is where would you get food grade lye from?  I know I can get food grade lime as pickling lime.  


Martin, as someone said you can get food grade lye online -- specifically at sites that sell soap making supplies.
I have some that I bought to make laugen brotchen and Swabian bretzels (pretzels); the lye is added to water and you dunk the risen rolls of bretzels into it just prior to baking.


On adding chalk: something I tried once was to crush my dark grains serpeate from the rest. I pladed them in a plastic bag and added the chalk, then shook together to coat the crushed grains. All the chalk seemed to stick to the grain bits...this was then added to the rest of the grains. My thinking was that the chalk would be right at the site where the dark grains would release their acidity,and so aid getting the chalk into solution.

So...does this sound silly? I have no means of testing if it makes any difference...no pH strips, no pH meter.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 09:58:39 AM by kerneldustjacket »
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