[jaybeerman]

1. Just to be clear, I'm not against decoction, either. I'm against expending effort that doesn't have a payoff!  
2. Anyway, did you do a blind tasting?  was it a triangle tasting?  I've come to the conclusion that that's really the only way to get somewhat objective results.

1. Yeah I know and mostly agree with your basic stance.  
2. No the tastings I'm refering to were not scientific, just sampling of brew with fellow home brewers.  I agree with your thoughts and would like to do further experiments.  I still feel that the differences between all of our palates can have a huge effect, that has been my experience while sitting on a tasting panel although we never had decocted beers to try.

This has been a great discussion.  cheers, j

[denny]

I have talked to German brew masters who said that decoction has little impact on taste.

when I was doing research after my decoction experiment, I heard from beer writer Lew Bryson.  He had been to Weinstephan (I probably butchered that!) and a brewing professor there said that they had a tasting panel try decocted and non decocted version of their weizen.  Most of the tasters found no difference.  The professor claimed that there was probably something wrong with the panel!

[tschmidlin]

I have talked to German brew masters who said that decoction has little impact on taste.

when I was doing research after my decoction experiment, I heard from beer writer Lew Bryson.  He had been to Weinstephan (I probably butchered that!) and a brewing professor there said that they had a tasting panel try decocted and non decocted version of their weizen.  Most of the tasters found no difference.  The professor claimed that there was probably something wrong with the panel!

That's hilarious!

But I have trouble reconciling it with Tim's decoction experiments, because he did a batch that had identical ingredients as the decocted batch and it was noticeably different.

[Mikey]

An Oktoberfest without a decoction is just another mediocre beer.

[denny]

That's hilarious!

But I have trouble reconciling it with Tim's decoction experiments, because he did a batch that had identical ingredients as the decocted batch and it was noticeably different.

However, in the decoction experiment I did, many of the beers with identical ingredients were found to have no noticeable differences and a significant number of tasters misidentified which was which.

[denny]

An Oktoberfest without a decoction is just another mediocre beer.

Maybe, maybe not...I'd have to test that to say for certain.

[tschmidlin]

That's hilarious!

But I have trouble reconciling it with Tim's decoction experiments, because he did a batch that had identical ingredients as the decocted batch and it was noticeably different.

However, in the decoction experiment I did, many of the beers with identical ingredients were found to have no noticeable differences and a significant number of tasters misidentified which was which.

Interesting, because he found the opposite.  I'll have to bug him for details, maybe there will be a clue in what he did.

[tomsawyer]

Not entirely on topic expect as it pertain to mashing in general, but I've often thought that it would be preferable from a digestibility standpoint to have the alpha amylase work first, followed by the beta.  Then you'd break the long chains into smaller ones before letting the alpha chew from many more ends instead of fewer longer ones.  I guess thats going on in a single infusion more than a step mash, so I do single infusion and rarely do decoctions.  And I understadn that the beta doesn't stay active at the temps favoring alpha, so I really cant do a backwards decoction.

[denny]

At least not until you figure out how to negate the laws of physics!

[tschmidlin]

I got the details from Tim, the full thing is here:
http://www.wahomebrewers.org/clinics/242-decoction-clinic-notes

1. Which beer was the triple decoction mash?
Single Infusion Mash: 13.89%
Single Infusion Mash with 4% Melanoidin Malt: 40.28%
Triple Decocted Mash: 45.83%

2. Which beer do you like best?
1. Triple Decocted Mash
2. Single Infusion Mash with 4% Melanoidin Malt
3. Single Infusion Mash

But the main problem is these were brewed on 3 different systems by 3 different brewers, so it's essentially meaningless without other controls.

Anyway, I feel like decoctions make a difference in my beers, but I haven't brewed back to back.  Looks like I need to now.

[denny]

I see you did a triple decoction.  All the beers in my experiment were single.  I think that if decoction does make a difference, it's gonna show up in a triple decoction.

[tschmidlin]

Yeah, it would seem if there is an effect then it would be more likely to show up with more decoctions.

[Kaiser]

I had to search for that Lew Bryson story and found it here: http://www.drinksforum.com/beer/Lewis-on-decoction-1788-6.htm

"Just to horn in... We were at Weihenstephan back in December, and got a
lecture from one of the profs there on this. They did a decoction and a
non-decoction batch, otherwise identical, then put the beers to a tasting
panel. They could not taste e difference. The prof was shocked, but pointed
out that while the panel could not...he could, blinded, repeatedly. He's
still a decoction disciple, but he's not sure what's going on. Is it subtle,
or is it not recognizable?"

It's the last sentence that might be key. I have heard that from others as well that decoction might be too subtle to taste unless you know what you are looking for. And based on my reading it is not so much an increase in melanoidens as it is an increase in tannins and other grain compounds that come out during the boil and make the beer taste more "robust". I though that I did notice this in my last decoction experiment but when I did a triple triangle test (3 triangle tests done blind) I was not able to discern the beers.

Kai

[bluesman]

I got the details from Tim, the full thing is here:
http://www.wahomebrewers.org/clinics/242-decoction-clinic-notes

1. Which beer was the triple decoction mash?
Single Infusion Mash: 13.89%
Single Infusion Mash with 4% Melanoidin Malt: 40.28%
Triple Decocted Mash: 45.83%

2. Which beer do you like best?
1. Triple Decocted Mash
2. Single Infusion Mash with 4% Melanoidin Malt
3. Single Infusion Mash

But the main problem is these were brewed on 3 different systems by 3 different brewers, so it's essentially meaningless without other controls.

Anyway, I feel like decoctions make a difference in my beers, but I haven't brewed back to back.  Looks like I need to now.

Interesting findings.

I also believe that my decocted beers are different than the single infusion mashed but haven't confirmed it with a tasting panel. I also hope to do it someday. I think that the decoctions being boiled will extract some tannins and develop melanoidins which will influence the taste of the end product. This is my theory.

The jury is still out.  

[denny]

Ron, you may know this, but melanoidins are a color, not a flavor.