Author Topic: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt  (Read 5093 times)

Online Kaiser

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Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« on: December 23, 2010, 08:07:09 AM »
I have this bag of Fawcett&Sons Maris Otter pale malt and every beer I brew from it is hazy. I just looked through my notes and I always noted that I was fairly cloudy after 4 or more month which forced me to fine it with gelatin.

This is the malt spec:

Maris Otter Pale Malt
Maltster: Thomas Fawcett & Sons
DBCG: 79.9%
MC: 3.6 %
DP Linter: 52
Total protein: 9.56%
SNR: 37.9 %
Homogenity 97.8%


I noticed the low modification index (SNR) and the 1st pair of beers was a APA where I brewed one with single infusion and the other one with a 30 min protein rest at 54 C followed by a single temp sacc rest. Both beers came out cloudy.

Then I brewed another 2 beers but I use single infusion mashing for both beers and added gelatin later.

I forgot about this for my last beer with this malt, an EPA, and the beer is cloudy again. My original intentrion for this pair of beers was to compare closed to open fermentation. While I’ll still do that I’ll also give the next beer a more intensive mash. A decoction mash with a 30 min protein rest at 48 C, sounds about right.

The haze is not a yeast haze. I looked at it under the microscope. It’s comprised of very fine particles that are a bit less than 1 um in size.
I’m able to brew clear beers with all the other malts I have used before and this malt is puzzling me.

Kai



Offline MDixon

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 09:37:47 AM »
Remember they don't measure every single sack. It is entirely possible you have a sack which might not meet specs. I remember trying to order some  grain once and was told they would not sell it since people (read as breweries/brewpubs) were having problems getting that particular malt to convert.
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Online Kaiser

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 09:58:02 AM »
Good point. I also think that I may have an odd batch of malt since I don’t hear other brewer’s complain about this malt.

I’ll dedicate the rest of this malt to trying to brew a clear beer using techniques that are known to improve clarity:

- clear run-off doesn’t work
- boiling at a pH ~5.5-5.4 and ~5.2-5.3 did not work
- simple protein rest at 54 C  for 30 min did not work
- intensive protein rest with decoction will be tested
- use of Irish Moss. I’ll try this on a later batch even though I haven’t used it for the last 100 batches

What else could you think of?

I believe that the haze already exists after chilling the wort and is distinct from cold break. Cold break is much larger (~10-30 um) and can also be seen under the microscope. I have left over wort samples that I can evaluate.

The good thing is that the beers are fine once I use gelatin.

Kai

Offline MDixon

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 10:33:51 AM »
Put 'em in a ceramic stein...no haze issues to note ;)
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 10:41:58 AM »
If you are adamant about removing the haze then I would suggest filtering the beer but I have an IPA brewed with TFMO on tap that is slightly hazy and it doesn't bother me in the sense that is a really fine tasting IPA. Is it just chill haze or ?
Ron Price

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 11:31:22 AM »
Is it just chill haze or ?

I's a permanent haze.

I don't like cloudy beer unless it goes with the style and want to understand how to consistently make clear beer w/o the need for fining or filtering.

Kai

Offline bluesman

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2010, 12:37:50 PM »
Is it just chill haze or ?

I's a permanent haze.

I don't like cloudy beer unless it goes with the style and want to understand how to consistently make clear beer w/o the need for fining or filtering.

Kai

As I understand it...permanent haze is typical protein–polyphenol haze consisted of about 50% protein, 25% polyphenol and the remaining 25% from polysaccharides and metals. This is induced by 0.1% total Nitrogen present in the beer.

Check out this article Kai.

http://scienceray.com/chemistry/nitrogenous-compounds-can-combine-with-polyphenols-to-form-complex-responsible-of-haze-in-beer/



Ron Price

Offline gordonstrong

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 02:21:53 PM »
I've had problem with Munton's Maris Otter before, including haze.  Did you get the expected extract with it?  When I had the haze problems, I also had lower than expected extract.  It happened on more than one bag, so I just concluded that they make crappy malt and spent more time getting better ones.  But I haven't heard people complain about Fawcett in the same way, so I'm assuming you got a bad bag.

I basically got rid of it by making dark beers and ignoring the haze problem.  I sometimes would get a lesser amount of haze from some continental Pils malts, so I normally throw in a short (10 min or so) rest at 131F/55C.  Not sure if this would help with this problem, but you might give it a shot.
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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 02:59:20 PM »
Did you get the expected extract with it?

Gordon, Thanks for the input.

I got less than usual but when I adjusted for the DBCG number given in the malt analysis I ended up getting within the margin of error that I expect in my measurements. I do a mash gravity test and have to add that getting close to 100% conversion efficiency took longer than expected. Even though I raised the mash temp to ~160F after 30 min at 150F. At 160F I had to hold the mash for another hour to get close to 100% conversion. Other lightly colored malts don't tend to be that difficult.

Kai

Offline mthogan1997

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 03:06:29 PM »
I have had consistent haze problems with Fawcett&Sons Maris Otter pale malt. Never could figure out why, so I quit using it.


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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 03:21:18 PM »
I searched the web on this issue and found this interesting comment from A.J.:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16744&start=0#p170494:
"Did the malt happen to be Maris Otter? It will sometimes throw haze if you don't do a protein rest. I had 2 batches done on the same day (which is why I skipped the protein rest) which were hazy to the last drop (I kept some for almost a year). The haze was protein globules and PVPP wouldn't touch it. From the size of the particles (which should have settled over the course of a year) and the immunity to PVPP I have to think there was something unusual in the electrical configuration of those proteins. I had some people confirm that you must do a protein rest with this cultivar and other say they have never had this problem with it."

He talks about protein globules which might be what I'm seeing under the microscope.

I doubt I'll use this malt again after I'm done with the current bag.

Kai

Offline johnf

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 03:44:31 PM »
I searched the web on this issue and found this interesting comment from A.J.:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16744&start=0#p170494:
"Did the malt happen to be Maris Otter? It will sometimes throw haze if you don't do a protein rest. I had 2 batches done on the same day (which is why I skipped the protein rest) which were hazy to the last drop (I kept some for almost a year). The haze was protein globules and PVPP wouldn't touch it. From the size of the particles (which should have settled over the course of a year) and the immunity to PVPP I have to think there was something unusual in the electrical configuration of those proteins. I had some people confirm that you must do a protein rest with this cultivar and other say they have never had this problem with it."

He talks about protein globules which might be what I'm seeing under the microscope.

I doubt I'll use this malt again after I'm done with the current bag.

Kai

I've seen that comment from AJ elsewhere.

I've used Crisp and Simpsons with no haze issues. I suspect it is malting process related and not cultivar related.

I was surprised to see the analysis you posted as English malts are supposed to be more modified than others and suitable for single infusion. I would have a hard time buying Continental malt that had lower protein modification. I'm curious how long the acrospire is, eg did they achieve low protein modification in an otherwise fully modified malt? If so, why?

Offline MDixon

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 06:46:42 PM »
I'm of the camp who have never had a problem with it...and I use Fawcett...
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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 06:59:20 PM »
Not haze, but one bag of Crisp MO would stick, every time i brewed with it.  When I was at Sierra Nevada Beer Camp, the pilot bewer Scott Jennings said that MO could be "sticky", and I said "Yes I know that!'.   MO is a great variety of malt, but we all see differences in malsters, and lot variations.

 
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Offline johnf

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Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 08:15:42 PM »
Not haze, but one bag of Crisp MO would stick, every time i brewed with it.  When I was at Sierra Nevada Beer Camp, the pilot bewer Scott Jennings said that MO could be "sticky", and I said "Yes I know that!'.   MO is a great variety of malt, but we all see differences in malsters, and lot variations.

 

When I did single infusion, MO gave me crazy dough balls. I dough in below gelatinization temp now and obviously never have dough balls.

MO gripe = MO gripe + 1

Worth it though.