Author Topic: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions  (Read 5656 times)

Offline tomsawyer

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1681
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 08:21:30 AM »
I think you only remove 75% of the SMM precursor in a 90min boil.  This brings it to an acceptable level but you still want to cool quickly or the other 25% can poetentially form DMS.  I don't think you could boil long enough to remove all of the precursor.

A hop stand includes keeping the wort hot (190F), just not boiling right?  I'd think you could get some isomerization in that case.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 08:31:53 AM »
I think you only remove 75% of the SMM precursor in a 90min boil.  This brings it to an acceptable level but you still want to cool quickly or the other 25% can poetentially form DMS.  I don't think you could boil long enough to remove all of the precursor.

A hop stand includes keeping the wort hot (190F), just not boiling right?  I'd think you could get some isomerization in that case.

DMS is volatile and so vigorous ale fermentations can remove quite a bit as well.

As for the hop stand. I do 30 minutes post flame out and I've been calculating it as a 20 minute addition using Tinseth and think that is about right, maybe 15 but not less.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11654
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 09:00:05 AM »
As far as adding hops at flameout and letting it sit why not just do a first wort hop?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/HopSoup.htm



Hops at flameout will get you aroma.  FWH gets you flavor.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Online euge

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7218
  • Estilo Casero
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 11:43:25 AM »
I assumed it was about taste per the OP.

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman

jaybeerman

  • Guest
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 11:58:14 AM »
Ok, the need to hurry part comes from two situations - 1. Breweries who need to transfer and cool 20 bbl or so of hot wort to pitching temperature via a 2" hose.  2. Homebrewers who use to let the wort cool very slowly, like overnight.   In reality though since neither of those situations apply (to most of us), there isn't a huge need to hurry.  Don't worry about DMS if you have a good healthy boil and can chill your wort within 45-60 minutes of the end of boil.  Your aroma will really benefit from a 10 minute rest or if possible a ten minute whirlpool.  Oddly enough, if you can do a whirlpool the movement will extract aroma, a little more flavor and even some negligible ibu.   Cheers, j

Offline blatz

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2450
  • Paul Blatz - Jupiter, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 12:05:08 PM »
hmm - I think i am going to try this on my next batch (IPA), albeit with a hopback, recircing into the BK...
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Online Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 12:07:10 PM »
I have gotten a very nice noble hop aroma and flavor in a Pils I brewed with only FWH and bittering hops. I'll have to try this again but I thing I do get aroma and flavor from FWH, But you have to keep in mind that this flavor and aroma will have a different character.

As for the Hopstand, I have tried this with good success on a Pale Ale. The hop aroma/flavor was very nice and not as raw and grassy as the dryhopped version that was the other half of this side-by-side. To reduce the DMS formation I dropped the temperature for the hop stand to 80 C and let the wort sit a this temp for 30 min after adding the hops.

I did not account for the additional isomerization from both the newly added hops and the alpha acids that are already in the wot from previous hop additions. I don't remember the hop stand beer being more bitter but I also had a minor boil-over with this beer in which I may have lost some bittering hops.

Kai

Offline SiameseMoose

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Cincinnati, OH
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 12:19:33 PM »
A friend brewed a German pilsner, and due to circumstances beyond his control, could not cool it for over an hour. Compared to his regular pilsner, it was considerably more bitter. My estimate from a taste test was ibu's increased from upper 30's to over 50.
_____________________________________________________
Rob
I named my brewery after my cat, Moose. He's Siamese.
Primary: Belgian IPA
Kellerbier (to be cask conditioned for Memorial Day)
Secondary: 3 different batches of Flanders Red, Lambic, Alt
Lagering: none
Kegs: 18, but not all in use
Bottles: Gazillions
Next up: American Wheat with pear concentrate

jaybeerman

  • Guest
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 12:22:22 PM »
I have gotten a very nice noble hop aroma and flavor in a Pils I brewed with only FWH and bittering hops. I'll have to try this again but I thing I do get aroma and flavor from FWH, But you have to keep in mind that this flavor and aroma will have a different character.

I forgot to mention that it is all dependent on the base beer (i.e. IIPA or Pils).  I agree that the flavor (and some aroma) from fwh in a lighter base such as pilsner is fantastic.


<added>  Does anyone have experience using the lowered temp hopstand method and also (on a different occasion) using a hopback?  I'm curious how you thought the two compaired.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 12:34:29 PM by jaybeerman »

Online Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 12:26:50 PM »
I think you can substantially limit the IBU increase and DMS production by dropping the temp for the hop stand by 20 C (40 F) for example. That lower temp should still be hot enough for good aroma and flavor extraction from the hops.

Kai

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 01:12:59 PM »
How is it possible to have hop flavor without aroma?

Specifically what other than bittering compounds sensed by the tongue and retronasal perception of volatile aromatic compounds contributes to hop "flavor"?

Offline jeffy

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2441
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2011, 01:22:48 PM »
How is it possible to have hop flavor without aroma?

Specifically what other than bittering compounds sensed by the tongue and retronasal perception of volatile aromatic compounds contributes to hop "flavor"?

That's pretty deep, johnf.  You're asking which flavor out of these: sweet, salty, sour, bitter or umami?
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Online hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4530
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2011, 01:28:36 PM »
Those of you that have experimented with hopstand - adding flame out hops and NOT chilling for a while....
any words of wisdom or experiences on how to roughly calculate IBU contributions?
I suppose time and temp are big variables, but what does it taste like to YOU?
Thanks.
If you listen to the Firestone Walker episode of Can You Brew It, I think the brewer said something about their flameout hops contributing 20 or 25 IBUs in an 60 minute whirlpool, or something like that.  You'd have to go back and listen to get the specifics.
A long vigorous boil gets rid of the pre cursors.   Many breweries use a long whirlpool.  Kiwanda Cream ale from Pilican Pub has no boil hops.  They add the hops to the whirlpool for an hour, and get 25 IBU's measured.  That one wins a lot of awards.  
Firestone Walker uses a very big charge at KO, and lets those stand.   I have a clone from the CYBI episode, and it has more than enough bitterness.  Plenty of hop flavor too.  A big charge of Dry hops give the aroma.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline dean

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Me and Hayden, my newest grandson.
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2011, 05:39:13 PM »
I think Chris wrote an article about hopstanding about a year ago... posted it on NB's board if I remember right.  Somebody posted that quickly chilling gives better clarity?  I've tried using an IC and a Plate Chiller... the PC cooled the wort to the mid 60's very quickly but my beer still wasn't  clear.  I've found that letting my wort cool overnight doesn't taste like cooked corn or cabbage either.  It doesn't matter how long you take to let it chill in that respect as far as I can tell... I think its another one of those myths being carried on by the hord.   ;D  The only time I "have to" use a chiller is in the summer, even then I could just put my keg in the creek... did that last year too... it sat in flowing water about 6 inches deep and cooled overnight.  I've noticed no ill effects from slow chilling.  I'm also getting far less paranoid about wild yeast and or bacteria... just cleanup well and on brewday... RDWHAHB and go with it.  I've even had my arm in chilled wort up to my elbow... shoulda been a really nasty batch that one... but amazingly 11 grams of dry yeast somehow got the jump on all the other critters and beat them out of the gate if you can imagine that.   :o  ;D   ;)

Offline hokerer

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2634
  • Manassas, VA
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2011, 05:55:36 PM »
I've even had my arm in chilled wort up to my elbow... shoulda been a really nasty batch that one...

Reminds me of what we used to drink back in college.  Everyone would bring a bottle of clear liquor, dump it in a big plastic trash can, add some Hawaiian Punch mix, and then stir it by sticking your whole arm in there.  It was called a "Hairy Buffalo" cuz it'd eat the hairs right off your arm.
Joe