Author Topic: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions  (Read 5693 times)

Offline pinnah

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1160
  • Wesloper, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2011, 06:23:31 PM »
Hmmm, seems that a late chill Hopstand method for increased hop character
lacks real documentation regarding how to "exactly" calculate BU contribution. 

Thanks very much and some of the ideas gleaned from the responses include:

As for the hop stand. I do 30 minutes post flame out and I've been calculating it as a 20 minute addition using Tinseth and think that is about right, maybe 15 but not less.

My estimate from a taste test was ibu's increased from upper 30's to over 50.


I think Chris wrote an article about hopstanding about a year ago... posted it on NB's board if I remember right.

Thanks Dean, I finally found it.  Chris thinks about 10% more BU's with this method.
Link:  Mashweasel


I guess I will find out what it tastes (as in extra bitterness) like to me.  She is just now starting at 56 degrees. ;)

Cheers.



Offline dean

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Me and Hayden, my newest grandson.
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2011, 06:32:56 PM »
Yep.... I remember the Hairy Buffalo, mostly we just called them Trash Can parties though.  But those already had a significant amount of alcohol in them to kill any little critters compared to fresh cooled wort.  I don't know... I think that too much worrying is just as bad as too many cooks... RDWHAHB.  I worried way too much for a while with brewing, and the more I worried the less my beer became.  Its the simple, less worrisome things that really shine.   8)

Honestly, IMO... IBU calculations are bs... just some numbers thrown in in order to place some sort of unknown value on bitterness.  Its like asking how hot is hot, or asking someone else if you would like what they like.  Most of the recipe calculators assign far too low of a bitterness value imo.  Then there is different types of bitterness calc's, Rager, Tinseth, etc. etc. etc. 

Pinnah, just Do It and tell us what You thought of it and what if anything you would do differently next time.  Thats how I roll from now on... I'm the one thats gonna drink it.   ;D

Offline tygo

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2622
  • Sterling, VA
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2011, 06:51:57 PM »
IBU calculations for most homebrewers are just an indication of how bitter a beer may be in relation to other beers that you've brewed.  I agree that whatever you calculate as your IBU's is probably not what you're going to get if you send it to a lab to be analyzed. 

But as long as you keep your methodology for calculating the IBU's consistent you can use those numbers as an indication of how much bitterness a particular beer may have when you brew it on your system.
Clint
Wort Hogs

Fermenting: Wit
On Tap: Lucifer's Hammer Golden Strong Ale, Dopplebock, Old Fuzzynut's Ale

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2011, 07:51:28 PM »
IBU calculations for most homebrewers are just an indication of how bitter a beer may be in relation to other beers that you've brewed. 

Yep it is all empirical and this is what pro brewers understand. Not bitter enough? More hops next time.

If someone were willing to make a lot of wort and get IBUs measured on them, both Tinseth and Rager models can be refit to that data (rather than Tinseth's or Rager's data).

Offline piratepointbrewer

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Work Sucks, Wind is Free, Let's Sail
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2011, 10:17:17 AM »
We do both First Wort hops and "0" Min hops at flame out. We can only offer our observations as we don't spend the money to have our beer or our hops analyzed.

First wort hops seem to bring hop flavor into the beer even though it is later boiled. We often hear (read) that you can't taste bittering hops. We feel you can definately taste First worted hops. We have never precieved an aroma from First Worted hops. Since we don't have analysis done we accept the commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU's.

"0" Minuit or Flame Out hops. This is easy to do. We don't worry about rushing to the chiller as long as we stay 160*F+ and keep it covered, there is little risk of contamination. In fact the Austrailian Brew In A Bag folks never chill. The just put it in a covered container and let it sit overnight. We add our flame out hops to the hop bag and let them steep for 20 min. We definatly can get the Aroma effects, second, some of the hop oils stay on your lips for a few seconds after a drink. The taste is great and the preception of breathing in the hop is a very nice addition. Again since we don't analyze, we just assume no addition to IBU.

Summary  1st wort does add flavor, no aroma, and 10% boost to bittering IBU. Flame out adds a very interesting flavor and aroma effect. We assume no additional IBU.

Preston
In Winter, we burn wood in the fireplace and brew.
In Summer, we sail and swim, then drink what we brewed when we dock!

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11670
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2011, 10:24:33 AM »
Even though my experiment found that actual IBUs were increased by10% by FWH, I still calculate them as adding the same amount of bitterness as a 20 min. addition because that's how I perceive them.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline jeffy

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2445
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2011, 10:40:01 AM »
"commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU's"

10% boost over what? Zero or 60 minute addition?
I just checked what ProMash does with an addition at FWH and compared it to 60 minute and the value for FWH was about 10% less.  I have it set to whatever the default calculation is.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline dean

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Me and Hayden, my newest grandson.
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2011, 10:48:53 AM »
But as long as you keep your methodology for calculating the IBU's consistent you can use those numbers as an indication of how much bitterness a particular beer may have when you brew it on your system.

Good point, I would agree with that and its taken me this long to figure that out.  I remember posting recipes and others thinking I wasn't adding enough hops or conversely that I was making a hop bomb... on their systems that may very well have been true.   Its also why I don't post recipes often...  :D  I've tried other people's recipes too, some work, some don't. 

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2011, 11:21:20 AM »
I've pondered hopstanding and it's perceived effects many times. I think a flameout addition will dissolve the essential oils (lupulin) from the glands of the hops and lend a very aromatic wort. However after every minute of soaking time I think there is loss of  some aromatics. The aromatic compounds slowly volatilize over time as they soak in the near boiling wort. How much? That's the question I keep asking myself. I think there's a window of opportunity to capture the very fresh aromatics in the wort. 5min, 10 min, 30 min?

Hops for thought.  :)
Ron Price

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4540
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2011, 11:57:24 AM »
I've pondered hopstanding and it's perceived effects many times. I think a flameout addition will dissolve the essential oils (lupulin) from the glands of the hops and lend a very aromatic wort. However after every minute of soaking time I think there is loss of  some aromatics. The aromatic compounds slowly volatilize over time as they soak in the near boiling wort. How much? That's the question I keep asking myself. I think there's a window of opportunity to capture the very fresh aromatics in the wort. 5min, 10 min, 30 min?
Hops for thought.  :)
The essential oils can combine to form the flavor compounds.  The essential oils are in the beer if you dry hop.  I have aded hops at 180F to keep some in the beer, or let it combine.
Flash points for the essential oils.
Caryophyllene=200F
Humulene=110F
Myrcene=103F
Farnesene=79F

I think you see which aroma oils ones are had by dry hopping.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 12:00:49 PM »
1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".


Offline gmwren

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 12:17:49 PM »

The essential oils can combine to form the flavor compounds.  The essential oils are in the beer if you dry hop.  I have aded hops at 180F to keep some in the beer, or let it combine.
Flash points for the essential oils.
Caryophyllene=200F
Humulene=110F
Myrcene=103F
Farnesene=79F

I think you see which aroma oils ones are had by dry hopping.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that hops high in low temp flash points of essential oils make good candidates for dry hopping? I see some of my favorites on the Hopunion data page are high in Farnesene:
Amarillo 2-4%
Cascade 4-8%
Saaz (US) 9-13%
Sterling 11-17%
Some I don't like for dry hop, but do like for late or whirlpool hopping are low in Farnesene:
Chinook <1%
Columbus <1%
Hallertau <1%
Simcoe <1%

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11670
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 12:32:09 PM »
"commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU's"

10% boost over what? Zero or 60 minute addition?
I just checked what ProMash does with an addition at FWH and compared it to 60 minute and the value for FWH was about 10% less.  I have it set to whatever the default calculation is.

10% more IBU than a 60 min. addition is what I found.  But like I said, in my recipes I count it as a 20 min. addition, since I don't perceive the same amount of bitterness as a 60 min. addition.  To do that, I set my Promash FWH utilization at -65%.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11670
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »
1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".



It may add aroma, but you don't perceive that aroma as a separate thing.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 01:48:54 PM »
1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".



It may add aroma, but you don't perceive that aroma as a separate thing.

That's apparently not a uniform perception as the tasting panel described in the '95 Brauwelt article on FWH didn't perceive aroma.