Author Topic: Killing enzymes?  (Read 8961 times)

Offline hokerer

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2011, 11:45:39 AM »
I use this one as my certified "master" thermometer, not bad for $6.50...

http://cynmar.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=09601951
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Offline oscarvan

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 02:00:54 PM »
Well....I hit my gravity dead on..... so I got sugars. What kind of sugars I don't know.... We'll see how it attenuates. As I said in my oriinal post, it may or may not have gotten to 170 depending on which thermometer is right.....I have a gut feeling we're going to be OK here.

Meanwhile I will order one of those lollipop thermometers and make calibration tables for the various thermometers.

The good news is that I hit all my volumes dead on today.

Learning is taking place. 8)

I appreciate all the help.

Oscar.
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Offline denny

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 02:06:20 PM »
Meanwhile I will order one of those lollipop thermometers and make calibration tables for the various thermometers.

I like to use the bimetal dial thermometers for brewing since they're so easy to adjust when you calibrate them.  Then you need to keep referring to a table.  And be sure to calibrate them in the mash temp range.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 02:53:18 PM »
Those activity graphs are great, what is the original source for the data? 

The PDF seems to be gone from the link at which I found this. I'll have to check if I have a copy at home.

Kai

Offline euge

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 03:22:01 PM »
We're talking a few minutes here. Having the conflict I went with the hottest temp and stirred the mash lid off until it came down, but I may in fact be too cool now.

I REALLY need some decent thermometers. I can't control what I can't measure accurately....these $7 dial thermometers are toys.

Anyone have a source for accurate tools?

I'm extremely pleased with my Superfast Splashproof Thermapen which is also NIST certified. A little pricey but it gives me reads in seconds.

Oscar if you keep a bit of ice handy, a handful can drop the mash a couple degrees in those panicky first moments.
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Offline denny

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2011, 03:37:06 PM »
Those are great, Euge.  I'm trying to justify the price....hmmm, my birthday's in a couple weeks..... ;D
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Offline oscarvan

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2011, 03:38:19 PM »
Quote
And be sure to calibrate them in the mash temp range.

Good idea!

Quote
Oscar if you keep a bit of ice handy, a handful can drop the mash a couple degrees in those panicky first moments.

Another good idea..... However, as I am getting my system dialed in I am figuring out that there is very little heat loss from HLT to MLT...... so instead of going with 10º I will go with 5º which gives me a greater margin of error on the 170º and gets me closer to the target.

A little better every time.
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http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/WSBW/WSBW_All_grain_Setup.html
I brew WITH style..... not necessarily TO style.....

Offline tom

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2011, 03:54:20 PM »
Once enzymes are denatured it is irreversible.
That is true for some proteins, but certainly not for all. ;)
Thanks for correcting me. Learn something new every day.
Reviewing enzymes it appears they were first described in brewers yeast. Once again beer has saved the world!

But I would think that the brewing literature would know if beta- and alpha amylase denaturization is reversible or not.

Brew on
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Offline tubercle

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2011, 05:04:10 PM »
Once enzymes are denatured it is irreversible.
That is true for some proteins, but certainly not for all. ;)
Thanks for correcting me. Learn something new every day.
Reviewing enzymes it appears they were first described in brewers yeast. Once again beer has saved the world!

But I would think that the brewing literature would know if beta- and alpha amylase denaturization is reversible or not.

Brew on

 
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2011, 12:19:00 AM »
Betcha can't un-fry an egg ;D
;D

Yeah, some proteins don't denature reversibly, eggs are a good example.  And to your point tom, the brewing literature might have the information, you're right.  But they might not have done the required experiments either, I really don't know.  Clearly the proteins are inactivated at higher temps, and just as clearly they are irreversibly denatured at some point before the fermentation or mash temp profiles would have little meaning.  But where is that point where they are irreversibly denatured?  Is it just in the boil, or is it some point before that, and if before that, when?  Like Kai said, there is a time/temp component, but I haven't seen any data from the right kind of experiment to determine the answer.

Anyway, I'll do some digging and see what I can find.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline tom

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2011, 08:00:04 AM »
Why don't we just let Kai do it?     ;)
Brew on

Offline bluesman

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 08:04:45 AM »
Why don't we just let Kai do it?     ;)

+1  :)

I have always thought that 168F was the ideal temp to stop all enzymatic activity. Key word is "stop" but as others have also indicated I'm not sure if that's irreversible or not. Sounds like some experimentation will be in order to get to the bottom of all of this.  :-\
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Offline denny

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2011, 09:20:54 AM »
Just so people have a point of reference on this, here's a great chart from How to Brew...

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Offline tubercle

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2011, 10:31:31 AM »
So, according to tschmidlin, and I have no reason to not believe what he says - I respect his knowledge, if some of these enzymes re-nature what would be the effect of starting hot, say 170f, and letting the mash cool down to 150? Maybe stirring to help it get down over a reasonable period or just leaving the mash tun lid open. Wouldn't this be a better way to expose the grain to necessary temp (see Denny's chart) than holding at a set temps or ramping up through the temp ranges.

 Just drinking out loud....
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Killing enzymes?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2011, 12:00:30 PM »
So, according to tschmidlin, and I have no reason to not believe what he says - I respect his knowledge, if some of these enzymes re-nature what would be the effect of starting hot, say 170f, and letting the mash cool down to 150?

I tried that once and it made a much less fermentable wort. One mash had rests at 144°F and 158°F, and the other started at 158°F and dropped to 144°F over the course of about an hour and a half. The control wort had about 65% RDF, and the other was about 45%. I don't have the notes with me.

Alpha amylase requires the beta amylase products to produce a reasonably fermentable wort. Doing it in reverse would be easier, but isn't really possible.
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