Author Topic: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis  (Read 18101 times)

Online mabrungard

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2011, 02:30:27 PM »
Its apparent that I should point out to folks that all the observed results to date have shown that the predicted pH is about 0.1 to 0.2 units higher than observed.  Of course, all brewers should perform their pH measurement at room temperature. 

For that reason, I recommend that brewers aim a tenth or two above the typical "optimum" pH of about 5.4 when using the Mash Acidification tool.  It sure looks like I should alter the prediction equation to dial that error margin finer. 

By the way, as hamiltont found the quantity of mashing water has a direct affect on the mashing pH since it is the source for alkalinity to balance mash acidity.  Thinning out the mash with a water that has alkalinity should move the pH up and conversely reducing the water amount will decrease the pH.

Thanks for the feedback.
Martin B
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Offline richardt

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2011, 03:39:21 PM »
Perhaps a feature could be added to incorporate mashing and lautering/sparging methods (e.g., single, double, triple infusions and no-sparge, single sparge, double sparge).  Not everyone does equal infusions (strike and sparge amts being the same)--often out of ignorance, MLT limitations, or a desire to utilize a different mashing method.  But then you'd be bridging the gap towards a BeerSmith type of program.

Offline nateo

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2011, 12:35:40 PM »
Wow! I'm really pleased with the mash pH estimator. Hit 5.3 right off the bat. Thanks for much for making this available for us!

As noted above, any formula has room for improvement, but this thing is as close to perfect as I need.
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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2011, 05:40:17 PM »
I'm pleased to hear that the pH prediction was good.  The beta test team found that the pH more typically over estimated the pH by about 0.1 to 0.2 units (the predicted pH was higher than measured).  I intend to change the formula to indicate about 0.1 unit lower when the next version is issued.  That should be a little more accurate.  In the mean time, users should tend to aim a little (say 0.1 unit) higher than their desired pH.   

For those that measure their mash pH, I can always use your pH measurements along with the grist and water conditions you used for the brew.  Send your filled out program file to me at mabrungard@hotmail.com

Thanks!
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Offline nateo

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2011, 08:41:00 PM »
Martin: I had a grist of only pale malt @ 2 SRM, FWIW. I also use the EMD ChloropHast strips, and I'm extrapolating based on Kai's experiments with their systemic errors, so I'm not sure my data is as reliable as I'd want it to be if I were making formulae.

 I would love it if in future releases you could have a metric volume option for the mash and batch total. I like using your spreadsheet, but I hate using gallons.
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Offline denny

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2011, 10:16:16 AM »
For those that measure their mash pH, I can always use your pH measurements along with the grist and water conditions you used for the brew.  Send your filled out program file to me at mabrungard@hotmail.com

Thanks!

I did a 95% Rahr pale malt brew yesterday to see if I could send you some data about it.  Unfortunately, my pH meter refused to calibrate correctly.
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Offline narvin

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2011, 11:37:10 AM »

I incorporated this response in the mash pH calculation by limiting the minimum RA value used in the pH estimate to zero.  Negative RA values are assumed to be zero RA.  (The acid malt is on the other side of the equation in the malt acidity.  Its not affected by the zero RA limit.  I'll be adding a note that acid additions to the water that produce a negative RA would not be properly accounted in this program.  Unlike adding Ca or MG, acid in the mash can drop the pH below 5.)


After putting in the grist for a Pilsner, I'm unable to adjust the mash pH below 5.6 with mineral or acid adjustments (although acid malt does lower the pH).  Is this also a side effect of limiting water RA to 0 or greater?  This seems it could cause inaccurate predictions for people who use water with a negative RA on lighter beers.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 12:02:41 PM by narvin »
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Online mabrungard

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2011, 01:07:13 PM »
Good point on the inability to drop the predicted mash pH below 5.6 due to the program limiting RA to positive values. 

We know that the mash buffering systems will tend to keep the mash pH above 5 unless an acid is added to the mash.  I'll change the equation so that negative RA values are allowed (up to a point) and the brewer can estimate lower mash pH values.  I would still strongly recommend that brewers avoid aiming for mash pH's below about 5.4 since the beer quality tends to starting dropping (in my opinion). 
 
Martin B
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Offline narvin

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2011, 09:55:28 AM »
Good point on the inability to drop the predicted mash pH below 5.6 due to the program limiting RA to positive values.  

We know that the mash buffering systems will tend to keep the mash pH above 5 unless an acid is added to the mash.  I'll change the equation so that negative RA values are allowed (up to a point) and the brewer can estimate lower mash pH values.  I would still strongly recommend that brewers avoid aiming for mash pH's below about 5.4 since the beer quality tends to starting dropping (in my opinion).  
 

Cool... thanks Martin.  Looks nice.  Now I have 3 calculators to use and compare :)
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Offline mconant

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2011, 11:44:44 PM »
Fantastic program.  I've learned more about water analysis with this spreadsheet than I have with hours of reading.  Very practical! 

Excuse me now I have more brewing to do...


Offline gandelf

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2011, 04:38:47 PM »
Thanks Martin, another tool to fiddle with and I'm not even close to
being done with my Hop Rocket yet. Jolly Good.
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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2011, 05:20:23 PM »
Version 1.5 of Bru'n Water has been uploaded and is ready for downloading. 

Enhancements include:
 
  • Revised Mash pH algorithm
    Mash and Sparge Additions Totals
    Sparging Water Recommendations
    User Customizable Water Profile fields
    Advice for Water Report Troubleshooting
    Water Report Units Convertor
    More Notes throughout
    Enhanced Instructions
    Additional Water Knowledge

Enjoy
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
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Offline euge

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2011, 11:21:22 PM »
Version 1.5 of Bru'n Water has been uploaded and is ready for downloading. 

Enhancements include:
 
  • Revised Mash pH algorithm
    Mash and Sparge Additions Totals
    Sparging Water Recommendations
    User Customizable Water Profile fields
    Advice for Water Report Troubleshooting
    Water Report Units Convertor
    More Notes throughout
    Enhanced Instructions
    Additional Water Knowledge

Enjoy

Thanks! First-time for me with the spreadsheet. I'll give it a whirl. My pH was within range last batch.
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Offline dcbc

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2011, 08:23:45 PM »
Thanks, Martin!  Did you adjust to allow a little negative RA?  I have a bohemian pilsner on deck and that feature would come in handy. Thanks again!
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Advanced Software for Brewing Water Analysis
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2011, 08:42:55 PM »
Thanks Martin!

Your efforts and contribution to the brewing community are setting a standard of excellence.

I'll be upgrading to the latest and greatest.  ;)
Ron Price