Author Topic: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy  (Read 9069 times)

Offline tygo

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2622
  • Sterling, VA
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 07:55:46 PM »

Caramelization happens within a temperature range. Has anybody checked their temperatures when boiling down the first runnings?

My money's on 212°F.  ;D

Haha, good bet.
Clint
Wort Hogs

Fermenting: Wit
On Tap: Lucifer's Hammer Golden Strong Ale, Dopplebock, Old Fuzzynut's Ale

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 07:57:37 PM »
Here's some info on caramelization and malliard reactions taken from Wikipedia.

Caramelization doesn't begin until 230F.

Caramelization (British English: caramelisation) is the oxidation of sugar, a process used extensively in cooking for the resulting nutty flavor and brown color. As the process occurs, volatile chemicals are released, producing the characteristic caramel flavor.

Like the Maillard reaction, caramelization is a type of non-enzymatic browning. However, unlike the Maillard reaction, caramelization is pyrolysis, as opposed to reaction with amino acids.

When caramelization involves the disaccharide sucrose, it is broken down into the monosaccharides fructose and glucose.

Sugar   Temperature   
Fructose 110°C, 230°F
Galactose 160°C, 320°F
Glucose 160°C, 320°F
Sucrose 160°C, 320°F
Maltose 180°C, 356°F
Ron Price

Offline ndcube

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 06:11:18 AM »
I am debating this issue myself. I was planning to boil down only the first runnings, but now I'm thinking about boiling the first and second runnings together for a few hours. I think it would be easier and I also beleive the beer would benefit from it in that the entire wort would carmelize instead of just the first runnings.



I don't follow this logic here bud.

The idea of boiling down the first gallon is to concentrate the richness.  The richest, highest quality wort is the first running.  

Unless you mean skipping boiling on the 1st gallon and you mean boiling the entire wort, together, for a longer period.  Hard to decipher which you mean.

FWIW, when I made skotrat's recipe, doing the boil down, it was the most malty result I'd ever gotten.

I think he means whether or not to only take the first runnings and boil ALL of them or collect the second runnings as well.

Traditionally, are you supposed to only use the first runnings for a Wee Heavy and use the second runnings for something else?

Offline MDixon

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1009
    • View Profile
    • Mike's Homebrewing Page
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 06:53:12 AM »
My money's on 212°F.  ;D

I'll take that action!

Thanks for posting the temps blues. I researched this long ago when Randy Mosher pointed it out to me. All we see in the boil is darkening which can lead to caramel flavors, but it is not caramelization, it is maillard reactions until the water is gone.
It's not a popularity contest, it's beer!

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11660
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 09:37:15 AM »
Let's be somewhat clear, until you boil off the water the temp is not high enough to caramelize the sugars. So darkening occurs (maillard reactions), but not caramelization...

Once again, Dixon saves me from being the only pedant here!  :)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 09:42:42 AM »
Let's be somewhat clear, until you boil off the water the temp is not high enough to caramelize the sugars. So darkening occurs (maillard reactions), but not caramelization...

Once again, Dixon saves me from being the only pedant here!  :)

I think you meant us Denny.  ;)
Ron Price

Offline ndcube

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 09:45:03 AM »
Let's be somewhat clear, until you boil off the water the temp is not high enough to caramelize the sugars. So darkening occurs (maillard reactions), but not caramelization...

Once again, Dixon saves me from being the only pedant here!  :)

So a separate mini-boil down is still preferred with a long boil?

My wife isn't gonna like that.  She hates it when I boil wort on the stove.  'Course she doesn't complain about the finished  product!

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11660
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 09:45:32 AM »
Let's be somewhat clear, until you boil off the water the temp is not high enough to caramelize the sugars. So darkening occurs (maillard reactions), but not caramelization...

Once again, Dixon saves me from being the only pedant here!  :)

I think you meant us Denny.  ;)

Indeed!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11660
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 09:46:08 AM »
So a separate mini-boil down is still preferred with a long boil?

IMO, yes.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 09:52:00 AM »
After further consideration, I am going to take a gallon or two of the first runnings and boil it down about 75%. I will then do my standard batch sparge and boil everything together for a couple of hours. At least this is the plan for now.
Ron Price

Offline ndcube

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 09:58:43 AM »
After further consideration, I am going to take a gallon or two of the first runnings and boil it down about 75%. I will then do my standard batch sparge and boil everything together for a couple of hours. At least this is the plan for now.

That sounds like a good plan.

Offline tom

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1110
  • Denver, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 10:52:06 AM »
My money's on 212°F.  ;D
I'll take that action!

Thanks for posting the temps blues. I researched this long ago when Randy Mosher pointed it out to me. All we see in the boil is darkening which can lead to caramel flavors, but it is not caramelization, it is maillard reactions until the water is gone.
But when you are boiling only a gallon, the water will evaporate and then the caramelization begins at about 320F (not at 212F). Heck I can't even get my regular wort to boil at 212 (at a mile high it boils around 203F  ;) ).
Brew on

Offline blatz

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2453
  • Paul Blatz - Jupiter, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2009, 10:56:41 AM »
After further consideration, I am going to take a gallon or two of the first runnings and boil it down about 75%. I will then do my standard batch sparge and boil everything together for a couple of hours. At least this is the plan for now.

be sure to either add water or sparge more to get your volume and OG correct.
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8678
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2009, 11:11:44 AM »
My money's on 212°F.  ;D
I'll take that action!

Thanks for posting the temps blues. I researched this long ago when Randy Mosher pointed it out to me. All we see in the boil is darkening which can lead to caramel flavors, but it is not caramelization, it is maillard reactions until the water is gone.
But when you are boiling only a gallon, the water will evaporate and then the caramelization begins at about 320F (not at 212F). Heck I can't even get my regular wort to boil at 212 (at a mile high it boils around 203F  ;) ).

Don't quote me on this but I believe that there is some caramelization that occurs in the kettle. As the wort thickens to a syrup type consistently it caramelizes through condensation reactions.

As Wikipedia explains:

"A condensation reaction is a chemical reaction in which two molecules or moieties (functional groups) combine to form one single molecule, together with the loss of a small molecule.[1] When this small molecule is water, it is known as a dehydration reaction; other possible small molecules lost are hydrogen chloride, methanol, or acetic acid. The word "condensation" suggests a process in which something is lost; for reactions a small molecule is lost."

"When two separate molecules react, the condensation is termed intermolecular. A simple example is the condensation of two amino acids to form the peptide bond characteristic of proteins. This reaction example is the opposite of hydrolysis, which splits a chemical entity into two parts through the action of the polar water molecule, which itself splits into hydroxide and hydrogen ions."

The bottom line is that this process is still today poorly understood and the jury is still out on this.



 
Ron Price

Offline dbeechum

  • Administrator
  • Brewmaster General
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Pasadena, CA
    • View Profile
    • Experimental Brewing
Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2009, 11:59:14 AM »
Wow...that's a long brew day.  :o

Yeah total brew day was about 27 hours from measuring out the water to cleanup. Of course we just threw a party, smoked a crap ton of ribs and enjoyed a few brews. I went home and slept for my usual few and then went back the next morning. The thing that killed us was that we didn't top up enough over the course of the boil and ended with a lot of darkening, big caramel flavor and I'm fairly certain a number of longer less fermentable sugars.
Drew Beechum - Maltosefalcons.com
- Vote in the AHA GC Election! - http://bit.ly/1aV9GVd  -
-----
Burbling:
Gnome is in the Details
*Experimental Brewing - The Book*
Tap:
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tupelo Mead
Farmhouse Brett Saison