Author Topic: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy  (Read 9075 times)

Offline bonjour

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2009, 01:41:51 PM »
The hard part to measure is the boundary layer temp in a VERY small area.

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Offline ndcube

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2009, 01:43:34 PM »
My boils are anywhere from 60-90 minutes, so over that period of time it's consistantly happening to the wort in contact with the bottom of the kettle. Plently of time.

My guess is that wort on the bottom isn't exposed to it for more than a fraction of a second before it is circulated elsewhere.

Offline denny

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2009, 01:48:41 PM »
Let's assume that wort temperature gets super hot a few nm from the bottom of the kettle.  Not saying that's true.

The next question would be how long does it take to caramelize sugar?

If it takes any amount of time then it would probably mix with the rest of the wort too fast for this to happen.

Based on my experience making caramel in cooking, it takes more than a few seconds.
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Offline bonjour

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2009, 01:50:18 PM »
Based on my experience making caramel in cooking, it takes more than a few seconds.
  How long would it take for 1 drop Denny?

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Offline denny

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2009, 01:50:49 PM »
I guess an experiment is in order! (going to dig out my physical chemistry text book)

I checked in McGee's "On Food and Cooking" (pretty much the premier food science book) and that's what I'm basing my opinion on.
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Offline denny

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2009, 01:53:20 PM »
Based on my experience making caramel in cooking, it takes more than a few seconds.
  How long would it take for 1 drop Denny?



Not exactly sure what you mean Fred, but assuming you mean 1 drop of wort, if I was to put that into an otherwise empty superheated pan I'd guess it would caramelize quickly, if not almost instantly.  But that's a very different circumstance than in a kettle of liquid.  Also, IIRC, you need exposure to O2 in order for things to caramelize.  If I'm remembering correctly, that's a condition that won't be met in the bottom of a kettle of liquid.
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Offline bonjour

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2009, 01:59:25 PM »
That's where I was going Denny,  There are lot's of 'drops' of wort flashing to steam, removing heat from the kettle.  Needing O2, I don't know, never thought of that.

Fred
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Offline ndcube

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2009, 02:03:05 PM »
So what are we, as homebrewers, trying to emulate by doing a separate caramel boil?  Is this how scottish beers have traditionally been made or is there something that we can't acheive that commercial scottsh brewers can?

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2009, 02:04:39 PM »
That's where I was going Denny,  There are lot's of 'drops' of wort flashing to steam, removing heat from the kettle.  Needing O2, I don't know, never thought of that.

Fred

IIRC, for caramelization to occur, you need heat, protein, and O2.
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Offline denny

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2009, 02:06:36 PM »
So what are we, as homebrewers, trying to emulate by doing a separate caramel boil?  Is this how scottish beers have traditionally been made or is there something that we can't acheive that commercial scottsh brewers can?

The purpose is to emulate (not recreate) a long kettle boil.  Even if caramelization can't take place in the kettle (and we still haven't settled that), by boiling down wort we can mimic some of the long boil flavors through caramelizing the wort in a separate, smaller kettle.
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Offline ndcube

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2009, 02:11:59 PM »
So what are we, as homebrewers, trying to emulate by doing a separate caramel boil?  Is this how scottish beers have traditionally been made or is there something that we can't acheive that commercial scottsh brewers can?

The purpose is to emulate (not recreate) a long kettle boil.  Even if caramelization can't take place in the kettle (and we still haven't settled that), by boiling down wort we can mimic some of the long boil flavors through caramelizing the wort in a separate, smaller kettle.

Ah.  So how long of a boil are we talking about before we don't need the separate boil-down?

Offline denny

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2009, 02:15:31 PM »
Good question....I've done a 5 hour boil and gotten some of those flavors.  I don't know how long of a boil Traquair House does.  Maybe Skotrat knows....he's the one who pretty much came up with the technique and popularized it.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2009, 02:17:22 PM »
Ah.  So how long of a boil are we talking about before we don't need the separate boil-down?

a lot of hours, I'd guesstimate at least 4.

nd - you seem rather averse to doing the gallon boil down, but I'm not sure why?  It works very, very well.  Just keep an eye on it - amazingly, 2 gallons can boil over a 5gal pot when you turn your back  :o :-[
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Offline ndcube

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2009, 02:23:02 PM »
I'm not averse to it at all.  I aleady used the technique at a smaller scale on a 60 that I'm fermenting right now.

I just like to understand what's going on in the brew and the differences in techniques.  This has been a good discussion for me.


Offline blatz

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Re: Kettle Caramelization for a Wee Heavy
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2009, 02:27:41 PM »
I'm not averse to it at all.  I aleady used the technique at a smaller scale on a 60 that I'm fermenting right now.

I just like to understand what's going on in the brew and the differences in techniques.  This has been a good discussion for me.



gotcha - agreed - it has been a very informative discussion.
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