[nicneufeld]

Been catching a few episodes of "Sons of Guns." When a couple comes into the gun shop for a handgun to use for home protection, the owner takes them on the range and shows them how most handgun confrontations occur: at very close range.  He then asks the question, "Are you prepared to take a life?"  The couple rethinks their purchase and leaves empty handed.  Point is, a handgun is a specific tool for a specific purpose, and owning/carrying one is a "yes" to the above question.

Absolutely agree, to own or carry a defensive weapon without giving very serious, grave consideration to this question and arriving at a conclusion is a dangerous thing.  That goes for knives, guns, anything.  It is easy to consider it a good luck charm and to imagine that you'll never need to use it for more than just brandishing if you're in a bad spot.  But you're better off with nothing than carrying a weapon you aren't trained and/or willing to use for its quite serious purpose.

In all likelihood, beyond 99% of CCW licensees will never need to draw a weapon in defence.  But most people will likewise never need to use the fire extinguisher in their home that they replace every couple of years.  That's how I see a CCW...something unlikely ever to be used, but there in case of the worst possible situation, like an airbag in a car or a fire extinguisher.

That said there is a funny mockery of overzealous first time carry folks here:
http://lonelymachines.org/2006/08/12/return-of-the-iron-fist-of-the-mall-ninja/

And this is the classic original:
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[Slowbrew]

i know people who aren't qualified to be parents and we let them do that.  you should see some of the harm these people cause to children.  just saying

You can build a straw man for any argument but I think you miss a rather obvious difference between guns and kids.  Kids aren't born able to hurt or kill others and most kids don't get you or someone else hurt/killed because you don't know how to use them.

I'm not against gun ownership or CCW permits.  I worry about people who don't have any training, carrying a gun.  It's like tossing your 14 year old the keys and sending them out on the freeway.  They may be just fine but more than likely something bad is going to happen.

[theoman]

I'd like to thank Phillamb for enabling my laziness. You often seem to say what I'm thinking.

[narvin]

'and frankly the idea of having one or more random guys with guns standing around waiting to start a firefight at the slightest sign of a purse-snatching does not make me feel any safer.'

Thus the reason I think everyone who wants to carry should go thru a course... or more... anyone whos gone thru a course gets somewhat familiar with the local laws and if you're going to carry you should be familiar with them. Any jackass who pulls a gun on a purse snatcher and even thinks about taking a shot, especially if they're running away will be the one to goto jail and lose that priviledge to carry again...

You'd think that police officers would have had some kind of training, yet there are still incidents where off duty officers pull guns and shoot.  After drunken bar arguments, trying to break up fights, at the dog park(!)... excuse me if I'm not thrilled by the prospect of every moron out there having a gun.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-08-06/news/bs-md-ar-bear-bear-shooting-20100806-1_1_bear-bear-dog-park-police-question

http://www.wbaltv.com/r/26427374/detail.html

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-07-23/news/bs-md-dotson-guilty-20100723_1_dotson-s-attorney-unarmed-man-plea-deal

[1vertical]

I think the brandishing word is worth speaking about because that is a treat....percieved
or real, either way a threat.  Not something you should be doing without expecting
repercussion.  Therefore, I believe that if you need to exercise your power by a mere
showing of what you are carrying, perhaps you should not carry.

Rather, go for blood if you pull your piece. Knowing full well those consequences. YMMV

[phillamb168]

I think the brandishing word is worth speaking about because that is a treat....percieved
or real, either way a threat.  Not something you should be doing without expecting
repercussion.  Therefore, I believe that if you need to exercise your power by a mere
showing of what you are carrying, perhaps you should not carry.

Rather, go for blood if you pull your piece. Knowing full well those consequences. YMMV

This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

[EHall]

An armed society is a polite one!

I'm fully prepared to kill if I have to. I've been trained and think that I have a pretty cool head on my shoulders. I don't want to kill anyone and don't really want to find out what its like, but I am prepared for the responsibility that comes with carrying. But I also think that if you break into someones house you should be prepared to get shot. You know what you're doing is illegal and comes with a great risk, yet they do it anyway. I personally think that if the punishment was alot stronger folks would think twice about some of the things they do and there wouldn't be such a need to carry as often.

A couple months ago I started going for walks every night around my neighborhood. My wife wanted me to take my gun with me. I told her I thought it was unnecessary. I feel perfectly safe there. But I do take my maglite with me. I'm more concerned about dogs than I am people. I know I can defend myself against a dog with a flashlight so thats what I carry.

[morticaixavier]

But I also think that if you break into someones house you should be prepared to get shot.

This is not a discussion of the right to own guns in the home. It's CONCEALED carry that is at question. The only reason to carry a concealed weapon is if you are prepared to use it. If you want to discourage someone from mugging or otherwise attacking you then strap it on your hip. It should be real visable if it is to be a means of discouragement. otherwise it is only there to make you feel powerful and for that I agree with Phil, learn some martial arts. Also in most mugging situations the best and safest thing you can do is to listen to what they are telling you to do and do it. They want your money/stuff and, at least for me, my life is worth more than my iPhone. if someone puts a gun to my head or a knife to my throat even if I had a gun under my arm I wouldn't want to try to pull down. They have the drop. My sensei back when I took karate always said that the best way to deal with an attacker with a gun or knife is to do whatever they say. The time for resistance is when they intend to kill or maim you regardless.

[maxieboy]

This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

Bit my tongue clean off...

[phillamb168]

This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

Bit my tongue clean off...

Doesn't seem like you did to me.

[phillamb168]

I'm fully prepared to kill if I have to.

Then you are a very, very, very different person from me.

[nicneufeld]

I think the brandishing word is worth speaking about because that is a threat....percieved
or real, either way a threat.  

And everyone should realize that brandishing is often a criminal offense!!!  If you present a weapon in public you better have a darned good reason to do so.

My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo.

I agree that it very often can be (see previous posts about mall ninjas for a good chuckle), depending on the individual, but I know a good many women who aren't carrying one for purposes of machismo.  One could say if there is an error of pride and ego, very often it can be on the other side, where some men brazenly insist that the only two weapons they need to take care of themselves are Righty and Lefty.  To quote the title of a sobering and excellent book by Massad Ayoob, a defensive weapon is only useful "In the Gravest Extreme" of situations; it isn't for protecting your honour or ego, just your life (and depending on what state, your property).  A poetic example of what any defensive weapon should be considered is the Sikh kirpan, a symbol itself of ahimsa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

[denny]

This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

Well spoken (typed), Phil.

[EHall]

Mort, you're right, I got a bit off subject. Let me be clear, I have my CCP but I don't carry that much. It depends on the situation and when I do carry I try to cover it up. I know it makes people nervous to see someone exercising their right. My intent is not to be macho or scare anyone. but I like having the option of being able to carry concealed and the extra training I got in my class was a bonus. I have had martial arts training although its been a while and I've never had to use it, but I do agree, depending on the situation, do what you're told. Taking a few of your personal items is not worth the risk of your life.

Back to the original point, I don't like the idea at all of folks being able to carry concealed w/o going thru training.

And here's something I just came across this morning, going to my 'offtrack' comment, make the punishment more severe and folks would stop being criminals to some degree.

PORTLAND, Ore. — Oregon police say both an intruder and a Portland homeowner phoned 911 to report the same thing: a strange man in a home.

Lt. Kelli Sheffer says the intruder told police he had just broken into a home Monday evening when the owner arrived — and the caller was worried the homeowner might have a gun.

Accompanied by his two German Shepherds, the homeowner found the intruder and asked what he was doing in the house. That's when the stranger locked himself in a bathroom and phoned police.

The homeowner called police with his account.

Sheffer says 24-year-old Timothy James Chapek, of Portland, was booked into jail for investigation of first-degree criminal trespass.

[phillamb168]

My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo.

I agree that it very often can be (see previous posts about mall ninjas for a good chuckle), depending on the individual, but I know a good many women who aren't carrying one for purposes of machismo.  One could say if there is an error of pride and ego, very often it can be on the other side, where some men brazenly insist that the only two weapons they need to take care of themselves are Righty and Lefty.  To quote the title of a sobering and excellent book by Massad Ayoob, a defensive weapon is only useful "In the Gravest Extreme" of situations; it isn't for protecting your honour or ego, just your life (and depending on what state, your property).  A poetic example of what any defensive weapon should be considered is the Sikh kirpan, a symbol itself of ahimsa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

This makes sense. In my previous boxing-related example, I was presented with a situation where I could defend myself by using a non-lethal skill I learned. But I know what you mean when you say it's one thing to use a good smack to defend yourself, but another entirely to go around looking for fights/telling everybody something akin to "One of these days, BANG! To the moon!"

"In the gravest extreme" is exactly when I'd like to have a firearm, but how can you judge when the times are extreme enough to warrant using a lethal weapon? It's a question cops are faced with and (hopefully, usually) receive a huge amount of training on. But knowing the difference between gravest extreme and 'oh crap, there goes my $400 iphone is not something that can be learned by passing a written test. That's why I think carrying isn't a good thing.