Author Topic: Starter Questions  (Read 1192 times)

Offline oscarvan

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Starter Questions
« on: March 17, 2011, 01:54:53 AM »
OK, I need 600B cells according to Mr Malty for 10 gallons of 1.080....

I have a smack pack of Wyeast 3789-PC Trappist Blend
1 2000ml erlenmyer and a stir plate.

How do I step this up? Quantities? Schedule? Can I do this in the single erlenmeyer? If I follow Mr Malty I can do one doubling and then run out of room..... Can I let it settle, pour off the liquid and top off with fresh "wort", repeat three times?

Also, the 3789 contains Brett in addition to the regular yeast........ will this multiply as well?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 02:02:01 AM by oscarvan »
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2011, 02:05:22 AM »
When propagating a blend, all the rules go out the window. So let's just ignore the Brett.

Assuming your pack is pretty fresh (85% viability), you could do a 1.5 L first stage, 2.3 L second stage. That gets you to your ~550 billion cells.

http://seanterrill.com/2010/03/08/two-stage-starter-calculations/
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Offline hokerer

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 06:50:54 AM »
Assuming your pack is pretty fresh (85% viability), you could do a 1.5 L first stage, 2.3 L second stage. That gets you to your ~550 billion cells.

2.3 L second stage would be a little tricky since he says he's only got a 2 L flask.

To the OP, yes, decanting and repeating will work fine - just takes more time.
Joe

Offline jgaarder

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2011, 07:52:16 AM »
I recently tried my first step up with a 2L and stir plate. I was stepping up Wyeast 1007. The first part no problem, it acted just like any of my previous starters. I cold crashed and decanted then added another 1.7L of wort. The 1007 then proceeded to blow out the top of the flask and I lost about 200ml of liquid along with a good amount of yeast. I don't know if this would be a problem with other yeast types but possible since they're so fresh and active during the second step. So next time when I need to have a second step I'll make sure to use a larger flask. Others have suggested using foam control with the starter, I have no experience with that but it sounds like another solution.

Offline maxieboy

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 08:28:47 AM »
Sounds like a 5L Erlenmeyer is in your future. You can get pretty close with your 2L if using a stirplate. See the third post down (thirstyboy) here . Later in the thread JZ gives his approval. The first couple times thru is a little confusing but you'll get it. Basically Sean's procedure explained a little differently.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 06:19:30 PM by maxieboy »
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Offline oscarvan

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 08:40:02 AM »
Hmmmm, with these quantities it sounds like I might as well be making beer while farming yeast. So I think I'll do a 2l starter, make a five gallon batch and end up with the desired amount of yeast.

That leaves the other half of the question. Will the Brett multiply along?
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Offline maxieboy

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 08:53:48 AM »
True enough but, doing starters, you can have your pitch in several days instead of 1-3 weeks(depending on how long you keep your beer on the yeast). Although, with your turnaround times, it may be neck and neck... :D
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 06:19:53 PM by maxieboy »
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Offline oscarvan

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 09:22:08 AM »
May slow up the rampup but in theory the rule of compounding applies.....

5/10/20/40/80/160.....

OK, STOP this nonsense..... ;D
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I brew WITH style..... not necessarily TO style.....

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 10:01:29 AM »
That leaves the other half of the question. Will the Brett multiply along?
Yes, it will multiply, but it is unlikely it will multiply at the same rate.  So in the end you'll have a different balance of the two strains than you had in the original smack pack.
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Offline euge

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 11:00:17 AM »
I've been practicing the "small batch is just a big starter" technique, but it isn't really- right? There's the strength of the beer to contend with as well as the effect the hops have on the yeast.

I'd like to see a sticky about starter techniques in Yeast and Fermentation. Would help new brewers and old alike. It could be called "Everything you wanted to know about making yeast starters" LOL.
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Offline tumarkin

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 11:35:50 AM »
That leaves the other half of the question. Will the Brett multiply along?
Yes, it will multiply, but it is unlikely it will multiply at the same rate.  So in the end you'll have a different balance of the two strains than you had in the original smack pack.

true, but I don't know how important that is. brett is often added late in the process after most of the heavy lifting of the fermentation has been done by the ale yeast. this can be by pitching a brett culture, or by racking the beer into a barrel with it's own beasties, etc. the brett will slowly do their thing, consuming sugars that are unfermentable by the tame yeasties. should be fine.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 11:48:41 AM »
That leaves the other half of the question. Will the Brett multiply along?
Yes, it will multiply, but it is unlikely it will multiply at the same rate.  So in the end you'll have a different balance of the two strains than you had in the original smack pack.

true, but I don't know how important that is. brett is often added late in the process after most of the heavy lifting of the fermentation has been done by the ale yeast. this can be by pitching a brett culture, or by racking the beer into a barrel with it's own beasties, etc. the brett will slowly do their thing, consuming sugars that are unfermentable by the tame yeasties. should be fine.
I agree it will probably not be a big deal, but it would probably be noticeably different than if he just pitched 3 smack packs.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline narvin

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 02:47:47 PM »
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

Another tool that has built in support for multi step starters (although no yeast viability estimator or option to pitch from slurry).  Keep in mind that you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells/ml per degree plato of the wort for ales, and twice this for lagers.

And yes, you need a 5L flask!
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Offline oscarvan

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2011, 05:28:14 PM »
OK, the plan has changed. I'm doing a 2L starter of 3787 (Trappist Ale) and will brew a 5G batch with that. I will add Brett after it's all done, in the keg where it will condition. This keeps the yeast pure, and will allow me to keep the strain going for the next 10 gallon batch without worrying about having the Brett all over the place in unknown quantity. It will only touch the keg, which will have a big "B" painted on it.
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Offline oscarvan

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Re: Starter Questions
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2011, 02:39:26 PM »
Well, I'd say this is a success so far. The starter was done in about 18 hours. I poured off most of the "beer" in the flask and pitched the rest on one babalicious 5 gallon wort with a healthy 1.082 SG. Must have done something right because 19 hours later this thing is SMOKING.....



And, it's in the fermenteezer! 67º ambient right now, bucket thermometer says 72º. As it slows down I will be cranking up the temp to keep it humming......Brewing Like a Monk. BTW, really enjoyed that book. More than a "how to do" it's a "how to think". The same flavor I liked so much about Charlie Papazian's book........
Wooden Shoe Brew Works (not a commercial operation) Bethlehem, PA
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/WSBW/WSBW_All_grain_Setup.html
I brew WITH style..... not necessarily TO style.....