Author Topic: Second Runnings Beer  (Read 2242 times)

Offline miguelpanderland

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Second Runnings Beer
« on: March 23, 2011, 12:57:57 PM »
On Saturday I'd like to brew a barleywine using one of the recipes suggested in the Nov/Dec 2010 Zymurgy issue.  Is it reasonable/normal/etc. to simply use whatever I've sparged as the wort for the second runnings beer?  The bit of reading I've done seems to suggest this would be ok (and perhaps even to give the second runnings a bump in gravity by having added a mini mash).  Am I in the ballpark with my thinking?

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2011, 01:22:40 PM »
If you mash with 2qt/lb and the grain hold onto 0.5qt/lb of the runnings, you have 25% of your sugars left in the tun after draining.  If you mash at 1.5qt/lb, 33% of the sugars are left.  So yes, its quite possible to do a partigyle and make two beers with one mash, depending on the volumes and gravities you are wanting.  I don't think you'd need to do a second mash but it is an option if you don't have quite enough sugar to do what you want.
Lennie
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Offline hamiltont

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 03:03:23 PM »
Blending worts is anther option if the first runnings are higher than anticipated. I've done that a number of times with good results. It usually amounts to an exchange of a gallon or so.  Good Luck!!  Cheers!!!
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Offline miguelpanderland

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2011, 10:11:33 PM »
How do I estimate what the OG of the second runnings brew should be? 

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 12:05:36 AM »
You'll need to post the recipe (or at least the total amount of grain) and the qt/lb you'll plan to mash with, for us to estimate properly.
Lennie
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Offline miguelpanderland

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 02:33:02 AM »
Grain bill for an American Barleywine (Zymurgy V33 N6 - Nov/Dec 2010)

6 lb Maris Otter
12 lb 2 Row
1 lb Orange blossom honey
.5 lb CaraVienne
.5 lb Crystal 40
.5 lb Crystal 60
2 oz. Crystal 120
2 oz Special B

I plan on a 2qt/lb mash.

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 12:18:27 PM »
We'll call that 20lb of grain for simplicity's sake.  I'll use an average of 36ppg, the base will be a pint higher and the crystal a few points lower so that will even out.  So you have 20 x 36 = 720 points if you were to get 100% efficiency.

You're adding 2qt/lb x 20 = 40qt of water.  The grain will soak up roughly 0.5qt/lb so if you have little to no dead space you'll run off 30qt of water.  According to Kai's data you should get around 68% in the first runnings, lets assume thats optimisitc and knock that down to 60%.  60% of 720pts is 432pts.  In 5gal of beer thats 86ppg or 1.086 OG.  Add a pound of honey to that (roughly 36points) and the OG is bumped up to 1.093.  Of course if you are shooting for 5.5gal the OG will be 10% less.

What you have left after running off 60% of your sugars, is 40% or 288pts.  Lets assume you average 75% efficiency so you'll get maybe another 15% from a sparge, or 108pts.  Thats only 1.022 so you'll want to either mash another 5lb of grain in the tun or add 3lb of DME to get your second beer to a respectable 22+27= 49 or 1.049.  Or you could add back a little wort from your first runnings and make your barleywine a little lower OG.  I persoanlly like a barleywine starting in the 1.080s rather than higher but I'm probably in the minority on that.

Keep in mind that this is just a ballpark estimate.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 12:21:13 PM by tomsawyer »
Lennie
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Offline miguelpanderland

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 12:39:59 PM »
Wow.  Thanks tomsawyer.

How you sorted things according to estimated efficiency makes sense.  Where/how do you get the info to calculate the gravity points? 


Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 02:03:01 PM »
You can get some estimates/ranges of the points per pound per gallon (what I abreviated ppg) from this website:

http://www.byo.com/resources/grains

As far as estimating what you'll get from first runnings vs sparge, thats partly from my own experience and partly from Kaiser's info, he has a wikipedia site with tons of info.  I think the addy is in his signature.
Lennie
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Offline miguelpanderland

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 03:03:39 PM »
This has been a really helpful conversation.  Many thanks.

Offline wilypig

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2011, 03:29:05 PM »
Designing Great Beers has a section on recipe formulation that discusses the use of Gravity point in detail. I use this for Partigyle mash development a lot. I generally get 3 beers from a partigyle mash with this method. A big beer in the 1.080 area, a standard beer in the 1.050-1.060 range and a small ale in the 1.030-1.040 range. With the addition of some specialty/steeping grains (Crystal, roast, etc.) you can really change the character of the subsequent beers. I like to run the first infusion/mash with just base grain, I use Golden Promise for a strong ale/barley wine. The second infusion would be with and addition of some toasted malt(Victory/biscuit) and some crystal. The third infusion would include some black malt and chocolate malt. This would give the following - Barleywine, Pale ale, Brown Porter. 3 beer, one mash tun, one brew day. A bit longer than the normal brew day but I can triple the output with the addition of a few hours. And yes I have access enough equipment to do this.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 03:36:43 PM »
Come to think of it, I believe tastybrew.com has a calculator for figuring the gravities of a mash.  That might be helpful.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline miguelpanderland

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 03:49:50 PM »
Based on the process and calcs in this thread, I was imagining that my second brew could be a mild.  The additional mash would just be come more base malt (4 or 5 lbs) and perhaps something to assist head retention.  In that mini mash, would I really need to worry at all about adding any crystal due to the primary grist?

Wilypig, Designing Great Beers is the resource I'm using.  Just got it recently and am trying to learn the formulas/process.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 03:51:40 PM by miguelpanderland »

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 04:20:10 PM »
Since a mild is only 1.030-1.038 OG range, you might only need a few extra pounds of malt.  I think you're right about not needing much more specialty grain, maybe a few ounces of British chocolate malt for a little color and to change the flavor up a bit.  I'd mash this at a fairly high temp (156F) to give yourself a decent final gravity.  I've found these sub 1.040 beers are pretty thin if they finish too dry.
Lennie
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Offline miguelpanderland

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Re: Second Runnings Beer
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2011, 12:38:53 PM »
One more question tomsawyer, how did you calculate the gravity from ppg?