[flatfour64]

Ok, first post on this forum, been on NB forum for a while.  Be gentle please   

I have a partial mash recipe here for a half boil on the stove top.  I would like to have this recipe work year round, even in the frozen months when I do not brew outside, hence the partial boil.  Here it is from my Beersmith files:

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Green Monster Red
Brewer: Rob Colton
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: Partial Mash
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal     
Boil Size: 2.40 gal
Estimated OG: 1.066 SG
Estimated Color: 11.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 85.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU     
5.50 lb       Muntons Light DME (3.5 SRM)               Dry Extract  56.70 %       
3.50 lb       Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)            Grain        36.08 %       
0.30 lb       Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)    Grain        3.09 %       
0.25 lb       Melanoiden Malt (25.0 SRM)                Grain        2.58 %       
0.15 lb       Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)                Grain        1.55 %       
1.00 oz       Amarillo Gold [8.50 %]  (Dry Hop 7 days)  Hops          -           
1.00 oz       Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %]  (Dry Hop 7 Hops          -           
1.00 oz       Simcoe [13.00 %]  (Dry Hop 7 days)        Hops          -           
1.00 oz       Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %]  (60 min)   Hops         17.5 IBU     
1.00 oz       Simcoe [13.00 %]  (20 min)                Hops         9.8 IBU       
1.00 oz       Amarillo Gold [8.50 %]  (10 min)          Hops         3.8 IBU       
1.00 oz       Simcoe [13.00 %]  (10 min)                Hops         5.9 IBU       
1.00 oz       Amarillo Gold [8.50 %]  (0 min) (Aroma HopHops          -           
1.00 oz       Simcoe [13.00 %]  (0 min) (Aroma Hop-SteepHops          -           
1.00 oz       Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %]  (0 min) (ArHops          -           
1.00 items    Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min)          Misc                       
7.00 gal      Poland Spring (R)                         Water                     
1 Pkgs        American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter Yeast-Ale                 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 4.20 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time     Name               Description                         Step Temp     
75 min        Mash In            Add 5.25 qt of water at 163.7 F     152.0 F       


The question is about the grain bill, will this be too malty for an IPA?  I know that a "red ipa" is not to style anyway, but I just don't want too much malty character in the beer.  The specialty grains are chosen mostly to impart as much of a red color as I can get.  Also note that this will be a 90 min boil to help the melanioden malt kick up the red, thats what I have been told anyway.  I have never used roasted barley or melanoiden malt before, so some advise would be appreciated!

Cheers!

[bluesman]

I would nix the roasted barley and the melanoiden.

Maybe add a shot of some medium crystal to give you the color your looking for. If you like your IPA's dry then adjust the mash down to 149F but keep it where it's at if you like a little more body. Definitely has a healthy hop schedule.

Welcome to the AHA forum.

[hoser]

11 SRM is not that red.  Generally the imperial ambers/red IPAs are generally around 15SRM and above.  Yours will probably be more orange in color.  Otherwise, it looks mighty tasty!

[gordonstrong]

I do think a little of something black is key to getting red.  Just an ounce or two.  If you're doing an extract beer with steeping, I'd just put that dark malt in a mesh bag by itself and steep it while gently stirring until it gets to the color you want.  Then remove it immediately.  Go ahead and steep the rest of the steeping grains for awhile.  But don't steep the dark malt for very long because you don't want the flavor.

Roast barley, black malt, chocolate malt.  Any of those can give you the color.  But you don't want the flavor.  Go easy.  You can always steep a bit more later if you need it.  Take small steps.

If you're going to mash, you can steep briefly in your strike water before mashing.

[jeffy]

I would nix the roasted barley and the melanoiden.

I'm not so sure I agree.  The roasted barley at that amount won't add much roastiness, just some red color, which is in his beer's name.  Melanoidin will add some malt complexity.  More crystal/caramel (medium, as bluesman says) will boost the body.

[pyrite]

I do think a little of something black is key to getting red.  Just an ounce or two.  If you're doing an extract beer with steeping, I'd just put that dark malt in a mesh bag by itself and steep it while gently stirring until it gets to the color you want.  Then remove it immediately.  Go ahead and steep the rest of the steeping grains for awhile.  But don't steep the dark malt for very long because you don't want the flavor.

Roast barley, black malt, chocolate malt.  Any of those can give you the color.  But you don't want the flavor.  Go easy.  You can always steep a bit more later if you need it.  Take small steps.

If you're going to mash, you can steep briefly in your strike water before mashing.

I've never steeped before...At what temp would you suggest steeping the dark color malt to extract color without flavor.

[bluesman]

I would nix the roasted barley and the melanoiden.

I'm not so sure I agree.  The roasted barley at that amount won't add much roastiness, just some red color, which is in his beer's name.  Melanoidin will add some malt complexity.  More crystal/caramel (medium, as bluesman says) will boost the body.

You don't want any of that roast flavor coming through with the black malts although I do agree with Gordon an ounce or two will lend some red color (maybe steep it). I think a slight boost in the crystal 120 will get him a redish hue.

The other option is some sinemar (Wyermann) or some debittered carafa which will aid in some reddish color. Again...it has to be very small additions.

[flatfour64]

I do think a little of something black is key to getting red.  Just an ounce or two.  If you're doing an extract beer with steeping, I'd just put that dark malt in a mesh bag by itself and steep it while gently stirring until it gets to the color you want.  Then remove it immediately.  Go ahead and steep the rest of the steeping grains for awhile.  But don't steep the dark malt for very long because you don't want the flavor.

Roast barley, black malt, chocolate malt.  Any of those can give you the color.  But you don't want the flavor.  Go easy.  You can always steep a bit more later if you need it.  Take small steps.

If you're going to mash, you can steep briefly in your strike water before mashing.

I will be doing a mini-mash of the pale and specialty malts.  I also heard that I could just add the roasted barley to tun during the sparge to get color without much flavor, seems to make sense maybe?  I think the majority of the body of the beer will be set by the DME anyway, yes/no?  I have good AG recipes for more traditional style IPAs, and I do like them dry, so I mash low and long.  This one I'm hoping to have a bit of a different twist in the grist, and RED in color, along with with that glorious hop slam.  So I want some complexity and SOME maltyness, but not too much.

Also, does a longer boil really help out the red color?

Thanks for the quick replies!

[Hokerer]

I use 2oz of Roast Barley in my Irish Red and that gives a nice red color.  It does, though, impart a tiny bit of roasted flavor which you probably don't want in an IPA.  The trick of adding it at the end of the mash might do the trick of getting the color without the roast.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

[bluesman]

I use 2oz of Roast Barley in my Irish Red and that gives a nice red color.  It does, though, impart a tiny bit of roasted flavor which you probably don't want in an IPA.  The trick of adding it at the end of the mash might do the trick of getting the color without the roast.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Joe's comment about roasted barley is why I would try to avoid using it in the mash. I'm not even sure about steeping it but I haven't tried it so I can't say for sure. Debittered Carafa would be your better choice for black malts but go small.

[gordonstrong]

I've never steeped before...At what temp would you suggest steeping the dark color malt to extract color without flavor.

Anything between 150F and 170F.  In Zymurgy, I say use 158F, but that's only because it converts nicely to 70C.   

Put it in some tight mesh nylon bag or multiple layers of kitchen cheesecloth if you don't have a steeping bag.  Sort of dunk it around in there (tying a string to it helps, sometimes the mesh bags have it already).  Swirl it a bit and watch the color change.  Yank it out without squeezing it out when you're at a color you like.

Sure, try debittered black or carafa if you like.  I've even used chocolate wheat.  It's not much malt.  You can play around with some water and decide if you like the color.  If not, pitch it and start over.  That's the great thing about doing it in the water before anything else.

You can also add the darker malts at mashout or during the vorlauf.  But it sounded like a partial mash or extract+steep recipe, so I went easier.  Basically, I would minimize the contact time between the dark malt and the hot water.  It's like making tea.  Give it a couple minutes and it tastes fine.  Leave it in for a half hour and it will taste terrible.  If you want color, not flavor, then yank the malt when you've hit that goal.

[bluesman]

You can also add the darker malts at mashout or during the vorlauf.  But it sounded like a partial mash or extract+steep recipe, so I went easier.  Basically, I would minimize the contact time between the dark malt and the hot water.  It's like making tea.  Give it a couple minutes and it tastes fine.  Leave it in for a half hour and it will taste terrible.  If you want color, not flavor, then yank the malt when you've hit that goal.

Sound advice. It's a trial and error kind of thing. Once you settle on a recipe you may find that it needs more color or less hops. You can always tweak it from there. The important thing is that you'll make beer. 

[gordonstrong]

Sinemar would work too (it's just concentrated carafa extract).  But you wouldn't need to use the whole bottle, and the stuff is perishable and spendy.  However, if you have it open from another use and need to use it up, adding by drops would be a good approach.

[flatfour64]

You can also add the darker malts at mashout or during the vorlauf.  But it sounded like a partial mash or extract+steep recipe, so I went easier.  Basically, I would minimize the contact time between the dark malt and the hot water.  It's like making tea.  Give it a couple minutes and it tastes fine.  Leave it in for a half hour and it will taste terrible.  If you want color, not flavor, then yank the malt when you've hit that goal.

Sound advice. It's a trial and error kind of thing. Once you settle on a recipe you may find that it needs more color or less hops. You can always tweak it from there. The important thing is that you'll make beer. 

Agreed, that sounds like a good starting point.  I think I will try the steeping idea with a few dark and black malts to see what gives the best color.  Perhaps the chocolate malt flavor would be less offensive if detected in small amounts than the roasted barley.  I'll post up the finalized recipe in a few days, thanks for the input!

[pyrite]

So cool. I appreciate the advice.. I always wondered how to add color with out adding the dark roast flavor.  Since I go all grain, I'm assuming this 'dunk method' of extracting color and not flavor works across the board.  Black Pilsner here I come.