Author Topic: Orval - disappointed  (Read 4336 times)

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1376
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2011, 09:45:55 PM »
When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Brew Like a Monk has a lot of details about how Orval is brewed.  Anything additional you'd like to add would be very welcome, of course.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:11:31 PM by narvin »
Please do not reply if your an evil alien!
Thanks
Chris S.

Offline samgamgee

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2011, 10:12:06 PM »
When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Maybe you could or would steer us down that quirky road to Oval nirvana.... ???  I would enjoy trying to approximate the beer.

I'll try to get the vitals across.

Malt is 87% pils and 13% caramel 100EBC. Mash at 65C for an hour, then raise to 72C for 20 minutes. They use RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum added. Not sure on exact levels, but it's supposed to emulate the water from the original spring at the monastery.

Kettle hops are strisselspalt, hersbrucker, willamette, and tradition. Didn't get IBUs or addition times, which is the biggest hole in what I have. No whirlpool. The wort is centrifuged to separate break material.

Fermentation starts at 15C and rises to 23-24C. One week total and freshly propagated yeast is used every time. Single strain for primary ( belgian bastogne should be the right one).

Then the beer is transfered to lagering tanks and dry hopped for two weeks at 15C with 400g/hl of strisselspalt and hersbrucker. After that, the primary yeast is centrifuged out and 3 million cells/ml are added back for bottle conditioning, with a small percentage of that being brett, but the majority is the primary strain. They also add nitrogen at bottling. They then condition the beer warm for three weeks before shipping it out.

Wish I had more specifics about the hop schedule. I Think the IBUs are lower than you would expect, because the beer is so dry. Still a pretty hoppy beer when fresh though. Easily the hoppiest trappist beer.




Offline jeffy

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2822
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2011, 04:07:41 AM »
Wow, thanks!  That was great info.
What is the purpose of the nitrogen at bottling and how is it added?  Do they saturate the beer using a sintered stone or top off the bottles or what?
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline uthristy

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Hot & sticky Fla.
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2011, 08:06:58 AM »
Are you growing some yeast from the dregs...just thought I'd ask since you have the aluminum foil capping the bottle.

Yes, I do a test batch with most  beers bought in Belgium, some are good & others less good.


Not sure on exact levels, but it's supposed to emulate the water from the original spring at the monastery.

I still kick myself for not getting a sample of the spring water at the monastery, its a open air spring.
Should of, could of but No! I forgot to carry in my water bottle while taking the tour. :-[
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 08:11:12 AM by uthristy »

Offline samgamgee

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2011, 09:52:29 AM »
Wow, thanks!  That was great info.
What is the purpose of the nitrogen at bottling and how is it added?  Do they saturate the beer using a sintered stone or top off the bottles or what?

I really don't know. I assumed they added it to get a better head when the beer is poured but I don't know how. I would guess they add it in-line to the filler with a stone. Maybe it allows the beer to foam quickly after jetting so that they can cap on foam and reduce oxygen in the bottle and has nothing to do with the head. All speculation on my part. This is the first time I have heard of a brewery doing this (except nitro cans and kegs).

Offline jeffy

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2822
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2011, 10:15:30 AM »
It kind of threw me, too, because the nitro in cans works because of higher pressure forced through a small orifice.  I can't see how that could happen in a bottle conditioned product with no widget.  Maybe it's for capping on foam, but that is also usually used in an already-carbonated beer.  A bottle-conditioned beer would scavenge the oxygen in the head space as part of its work, wouldn't it?
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline enso

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
  • Northeast Kingdom, VT
    • View Profile
    • Bristle Bros. Brewing Blog
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2011, 11:14:31 AM »
could the nitrogen merely be an attempt to prevent oxidation.  Just blasting the headspace with nitrogen before capping?  Why nitrogen instead of just co2 I dunno.  Just a thought.  Any inert gas could be used I suppose.
Dave Brush

Offline graymoment

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2015, 05:07:12 PM »
When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Maybe you could or would steer us down that quirky road to Oval nirvana.... ???  I would enjoy trying to approximate the beer.

I'll try to get the vitals across.

Malt is 87% pils and 13% caramel 100EBC. Mash at 65C for an hour, then raise to 72C for 20 minutes. They use RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum added. Not sure on exact levels, but it's supposed to emulate the water from the original spring at the monastery.

Kettle hops are strisselspalt, hersbrucker, willamette, and tradition. Didn't get IBUs or addition times, which is the biggest hole in what I have. No whirlpool. The wort is centrifuged to separate break material.

Fermentation starts at 15C and rises to 23-24C. One week total and freshly propagated yeast is used every time. Single strain for primary ( belgian bastogne should be the right one).

Then the beer is transfered to lagering tanks and dry hopped for two weeks at 15C with 400g/hl of strisselspalt and hersbrucker. After that, the primary yeast is centrifuged out and 3 million cells/ml are added back for bottle conditioning, with a small percentage of that being brett, but the majority is the primary strain. They also add nitrogen at bottling. They then condition the beer warm for three weeks before shipping it out.

Wish I had more specifics about the hop schedule. I Think the IBUs are lower than you would expect, because the beer is so dry. Still a pretty hoppy beer when fresh though. Easily the hoppiest trappist beer.

Thanks for posting this years ago. I wanted to see if you shed some info on the following questions:

You mention 2 malts: Pisner (assuming Belgian/French) and caramel at 100EBC (~51 SRM). While I can't find a malt with exactly that color, I was wondering if you knew if Caravienne or Caramunich would be best? Or maybe some combination of higher and lower color caramel malts? Caramunich seems to be about 56 SRM, which isn't all that far off, but Caravienne seems to be highlighting by another respected Orval clone recipe, even though it is much lighter in color (22 SRM = 43-44 EBC).

Orval's website discusses hops in a couple of areas, but mentions that they flavor their beer with 3 hops:
"Bavarian Hallertau, the Slovenian Styrian Golding and the Alsacian Strisselspalt."
You state "strisselspalt, hersbrucker, willamette, and tradition." Any insight there?

Cheers.

Offline bboy9000

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • KCMO
    • View Profile
Orval - disappointed
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2015, 11:33:08 PM »
And try some of the lighter ones like Boulevard Saison Brett or Goose Island Matilda in the meantime.

Boulevard Saison Brett isn't light after 6 months.  If you like barnyard lay some of it down for a while.
Brian
mobrewer

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4070
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2015, 07:58:58 AM »
Thanks for bumping this old post. This is great info here.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline chumley

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2015, 02:54:47 PM »
Definitely use the caravienne for the 13% malt addition.

Dry hop with Strisselspalt.  This I know for a fact, when I visited the brewery on October 2013.

Here are the dry hopped bales of Strisselspalt



And, going back to the OP, Orval does not travel that well in a bottle.  I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles.  But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.

Offline riceral

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2015, 04:23:05 PM »
But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.

Hope to find out first-hand. I'm going to Belgium in May for 12 days.
Ralph R.

Offline graymoment

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2015, 05:29:48 PM »
Definitely use the caravienne for the 13% malt addition.

Can you share why you recommend definitely using caravienne? Have you tried both caravienne and caramunich, and then came to that conclusion? Have you tried a combination of the two like others suggest? When I run it in my software, it calculates to about 6.1 SRM for the color with caravienne, which seems light for Orval. The malt flavor profile is more important that the color, so any supporting insight you have in that department would be helpful.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2015, 03:07:34 AM »
  I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles.  But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.

Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...
Staggering On The Shoulders Of Giants

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6035
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Orval - disappointed
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2015, 04:49:28 AM »
  I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles.  But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.

Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...

I think I have been to that pub.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!