[wamille]

We just finished brewing one metric ton of an American style IPA here in lovely South Korea just over a month ago. It's affectionately called Jirisan Moon Bear IPA in honor of a Korean mountain and the native bear that inhabits that area.  We added a total of 15 pounds of hops for the boil (2 lbs Chinook (60 minutes); 4 lbs Centennial/3 lbs Cascade (15 minutes); and 2 lbs Centennial/4 lbs (flameout)).  We also dry hopped 3 lbs total of Cascade and Centennial.  I would've thought this enough to give a really nice hop flavor/aroma.  The hop bitterness was surely there, but no great floral/citrusy flavor or aroma.  I was wondering if adding gypsum to the mash water next time would help accentuate the hop flavor and aroma.  I must note that the grain bill on this one was modified due to a lack of crystal malt... the local brewers substituted a small amount of dark malt to achieve the color we wanted without consulting us if that were a good idea.  This might also have taken away a bit of the hop flavor/aroma?  The dark malt was mashed the entire 60 minutes also.  Anyway, enlightened thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Bill

[majorvices]

I wouldn't think gypsum would do anything but accentuate the hop bitterness which would afffect the flavor but not the aroma. How many bbls is a metric ton? In my IPA I am using over 2 lbs of hops per bbl.

Dark malt might afffect you pH but I don't see how that could affect the aroma, though, again it could affect flavor.

[wamille]

mv,
The brewery is a 7bbl facility.  I think we ended up with around 50 5-gallon kegs when all was said and done.  Funny thing is, I was talking with the manager of the pub (CraftworksTaphouse.com) and he said they sold close to 10 kegs the first night the beer was introduced - this past Thursday night.  I'm guessing at this rate it won't last long.  We're going to try and tweek the next IPA so it tastes/smells more like the SN Celebration Ale... which is one of my favorite beers in the world.

I use around 10 ounces of hops for my IPA's... for a five gallon batch of course.  I love my hops!

[majorvices]

fifty 5 gallon kegs should be around 8bbls - assuming my math is right. You get about six 5 gallon kegs in a bbl of beer.

That said, I must not have been awake when I read you post. you used way too much bittering hops, no where near enough flavor/aroma hops.

For an 8bbl (or 7) you should have probably used at least 7-8 lbs of dry hops.

If you want hop flavor and aroma use more hops at the end of the boil. Per (approx) one bbl of beer I actually use 2 lbs of hops all in the last 10 minutes. I'm only using about 5 oz at the beginning of the boil (60 min) and 6 oz at 20 (flavor addition). All my other hops come at 10 min and flame out.

[tschmidlin]

they sold close to 10 kegs the first night the beer was introduced

This is great!  I was worried it wouldn't be popular and you wouldn't get to make another batch, this time with some crystal.

I use around 10 ounces of hops for my IPA's... for a five gallon batch of course.  I love my hops!

You're using the equivalent of 30+ pounds if you scale it up directly . . . what do you think of the hop flavor/aroma when you use half as much?  Maybe you can get them to go really crazy for the next one.

[wamille]

To clarify, I use about 10 ounces of hops in my homebrewed IPA.  This amount was not used to scale up to a metric ton of beer.  The beer we made for Craftworks Taphouse (the Korean one... I've heard Gordan Biersch just changed their name to the same) had 15 lbs total hops in the boil kettle... with the bittering hop being 2 lbs of Chinook.  Majorvices... you say 2lbs would be too much bittering hops?  I scaled up my recipe from my Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale clone - which I thought was pretty close to the real thing.  In fact, here is my scaled up recipe from beertools:

2 lbs Chinook 60 min
3 lbs Cascade 15 min
5 lbs Centennial 15 min
4 lbs Cascade Flameout
1 lb Centennial Flameout

The water they use is from provided from local moutain runoff.  I don't know the mineral content, but would adding gypsum be a problem?

1.5 lbs Cascade Dry hop
1.5 lbs Centennial Dry hop

[tschmidlin]

I was just commenting on your IPA as a point of reference for the hops in your batch.

If by "metric ton" you mean 10 hectoliteres, that is about 8.5 bbls, or roughly 50 times the batch size you are scaling up from.  Looked at that way, 2 lbs of bittering hops doesn't seem like that much to me.  If you liked the bitterness, I wouldn't worry about it.

As for gypsum, without knowing the mineral content it's hard to say if adding some would be a problem.  Can you take some of the water home and do a test batch?  It is not likely to affect the perception of hop aroma and flavor though, which is what I think you want.

Another thing to consider is the process - how long does it take to chill the wort, what is the temp of the wort in contact with the hops during that time, and how is that different from what you do at home?  Is it possible the dry hops were too restrained by the hop bag to get good extraction?  Was the yeast changed, or did they use the same one as you use?  What about fermentation temp?

[wamille]

Tom,

Yeah, it's 10 hectoliters... so that equals 8.5bbls?  Maybe I need to add more hops!!!

Regarding the water... I could ask the brewery's owner about testing his water.  If it's in need of some gypsum, we could easily add that to the mash water.

They have a heat exchanger that cools the wort quickly... exactly what quickly is I'm not sure though if you need a definitive time.  I'm not sure what you mean by what" the temp of the wort in contact with the hops during that time" means... if you're talking about the flameout, it's gotta be just under boiling... the same as home.  If you were talking about dry-hopping... the temp was 67F.  The yeast they used is Safale-05.  I use White Labs 001 liquid.

Cheers,
Bill

[tschmidlin]

Yes, 10 hectoliters is 8.5 bbls, perhaps more hops are in order

What I mean by the temp of the "wort in contact with the hops" is this - the wort is being run out of the kettle and through a chiller.  Yes, it's just off the boil, but the temp in the kettle will drop a bit over time.  And if it is first pumped into a whirlpool or something, then it will also drop.  But sitting at the hotter temp, the 15 minute and knockout additions will extract more bitterness and lose more flavor and aroma if it takes an hour or two to chill all of the wort than during the (presumably) shorter time it took you at home.  so the temp and time it takes to cool is just something to consider as you work on the recipe.

The water is an interesting problem, and I'm not sure of the real answer.  You can have it tested, but if it is mountain runoff then I think it will vary a lot seasonally.  What about the water supplier, presumably they get it tested periodically?  Perhaps you could look at their data and get a baseline, or one of their chemists could give you some decent information.

[wamille]

Tom,

They run the wort through a heat exchanger/chiller and I guess it takes about 15 minutes total to push the wort from the mash tun to the fermenter.

Chemist... haha... I don't mean to laugh, but this brewery is (from what I can tell) run by four people.  The owner was trained in Germany... his head assistant apparently trained at Oriental Brewing.  The other two... I have no clue.  A funny side note, he didn't believe a buddy of mine and me when it came time to mash the grains for the IPA.  We told him the temperature had to be 68.8C... around 156F.  He didn't believe it because they don't mash at temperatures above 148F.  He had to call his mentor to figure out if we were crazy.  His mentor... a former brewmaster for OB - and even worked at AB supposedly... told him that temperature was way too high.  We had to get the pub manager to convince them that we needed the temperature to 68.8C and that if the beer were ruined he'd suck up the cost.  Man, it's a nightmare over here to get an IPA made.

[majorvices]

I certainly don't think you are using too much hops in the 60 min addition - what I am saying is you are not using any where near enough hops in the flavor/aroma addition. For instance, you are dry hopping 1 lb for 8.5 bbls. For my 3bbl fermenter I can sometimes use nearly 6 lbs of hops for dry hopping. Granted, that is for my double IPA. But you get the picture.

[tschmidlin]

They run the wort through a heat exchanger/chiller and I guess it takes about 15 minutes total to push the wort from the mash tun to the fermenter.

They can chill 8.5 bbls in 15 minutes?  That's a great chiller!

Chemist...

I meant from the water supplier, they must employ someone like that.  Or maybe not, I don't know what the regs are there.

Man, it's a nightmare over here to get an IPA made.

I'm really impressed that you're getting it done!

[majorvices]

I'm really impressed that you're getting it done!

+1 - now add some fricken hops. 

[wamille]

MV... I've updated the hops from 15 lbs to 18 lbs in the flavoring and aroma additions.  I'll keep the chinook at 2 lbs.  I also decided to bump up the dry hops to 5 lbs... what do you think given your experience for this volume?

Cheers,
Bill

And thanks for the pat on the back guys.  I know what it feels like to be a salmon trying to swim home!!!