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Author Topic: Is This A Problem?  (Read 13331 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2011, 04:54:04 pm »
I also see clarifying agents in the future of this batch....  rushing my recirc and sparge, not pulling off the grainbed as clear as I'd like....  ah well, I'll pretend like that's what I meant to do :P



As far as I've found, the clarity of your runoff doesn't necessarily indicate the clarity of the finished beer.
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Offline malzig

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2011, 04:33:54 am »
I also see clarifying agents in the future of this batch....  rushing my recirc and sparge, not pulling off the grainbed as clear as I'd like....  ah well, I'll pretend like that's what I meant to do :P
As far as I've found, the clarity of your runoff doesn't necessarily indicate the clarity of the finished beer.
I agree.  I never make any attempt to get clear runoff, other than a couple pints vorlauf to remove the chunks, and I get brilliantly clear beer without ever using any clarifying agents or filtration.

ccarlson

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2011, 06:49:48 am »
I have to disagree. I vorlauf at least a gallon, sometimes more. I go by the premise garbage in equals garbage out. Even if it's not really like that, a couple of minutes taking that extra step makes me feel better.

Offline SpanishCastleAle

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2011, 08:07:42 am »
As far as I've found, the clarity of your runoff doesn't necessarily indicate the clarity of the finished beer.
This has been my experience as well.  IME it actually tilts in the other direction when it comes to uber clear wort in the fermenter.  The clearest worts I put in the fermenter (or an FFT sample, which I do for every brew) are usually not my clearest beers.  I always rough filter the lauter/sparge through a fine mesh nylon bag to catch any chunks/grits/husks but when I'm getting it in fermenter (through a strainer) I sometimes get more break/trub than others (depending mostly on malts used and amount of pellet hops).  I've even done 10 gal batches split into two fermenters with one getting the uber-clear first 5 gal and the other getting the last 5 gal which gets some break.  The fermenter with the break always seems to yield clearerer beer.

Offline denny

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2011, 08:53:02 am »
I have to disagree. I vorlauf at least a gallon, sometimes more. I go by the premise garbage in equals garbage out. Even if it's not really like that, a couple of minutes taking that extra step makes me feel better.

And not wasting a couple minutes doing something I don't need to do makes me feel good.  Whatever works for you.
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Offline denny

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2011, 08:55:07 am »
I've even done 10 gal batches split into two fermenters with one getting the uber-clear first 5 gal and the other getting the last 5 gal which gets some break.  The fermenter with the break always seems to yield clearerer beer.

This echoes a test done by a guy on the Brews and Views board a few years back.  He split a batch of pils.  One half went into the fermenter with all the trub, one half without.  On tasting, the half with trub was clearer and better tasting.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2011, 09:00:30 am »
I've even done 10 gal batches split into two fermenters with one getting the uber-clear first 5 gal and the other getting the last 5 gal which gets some break.  The fermenter with the break always seems to yield clearerer beer.

This echoes a test done by a guy on the Brews and Views board a few years back.  He split a batch of pils.  One half went into the fermenter with all the trub, one half without.  On tasting, the half with trub was clearer and better tasting.

+1

I haven't seen any correlation between cloudy wort and cloudy beer. I have a Helles on tap right now that was very cloudy coming out of the mash tun but yet is crystal clear coming out of the keg.
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Offline denny

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2011, 09:02:59 am »
+1

I haven't seen any correlation between cloudy wort and cloudy beer. I have a Helles on tap right now that was very cloudy coming out of the mash tun but yet is crystal clear coming out of the keg.

Here's a link to his test...

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/41534.html
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ccarlson

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2011, 09:09:13 am »
I have to disagree. I vorlauf at least a gallon, sometimes more. I go by the premise garbage in equals garbage out. Even if it's not really like that, a couple of minutes taking that extra step makes me feel better.

And not wasting a couple minutes doing something I don't need to do makes me feel good.  Whatever works for you.

It's not just clarity. I think it yields a cleaner taste. Remember, everything that goes in the kettle gets boiled as well.

Hey, if a couple of minutes is that important to you, than skip it and feel good. To me, it kind of gets back to that 20 minute mash time. If I'm ever that worried about a few minutes here and there, then I'll just go buy my beer.

Offline denny

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2011, 09:12:05 am »
It's not just clarity. I think it yields a cleaner taste. Remember, everything that goes in the kettle gets boiled as well.

Yeah, I understand.  This guy found that it still doesn't matter, which is my conclusion also.

 http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/41534.html

Hey, if a couple of minutes is that important to you, than skip it and feel good. To me, it kind of gets back to that 20 minute mash time. If I'm ever that worried about a few minutes here and there, then I'll just go buy my beer.

The time doesn't bother me.  The wasted effort does.
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ccarlson

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2011, 09:20:13 am »
It's not just clarity. I think it yields a cleaner taste. Remember, everything that goes in the kettle gets boiled as well.

Yeah, I understand.  This guy found that it still doesn't matter, which is my conclusion also.

 http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/41534.html

Hey, if a couple of minutes is that important to you, than skip it and feel good. To me, it kind of gets back to that 20 minute mash time. If I'm ever that worried about a few minutes here and there, then I'll just go buy my beer.


The time doesn't bother me.  The wasted effort does.


The fact that you came to the same conclusion makes sense as to why you don't want to waste a couple of minutes. However, I've read read many opinions on forums, books, etc., by the experts, and while many are correct, some I just have to disagree with. This is one of them.  I've also discussed this very topic with the head brewer at a small craft brewery and he agrees that you should make every effort, within reason, to achieve clarity during vorlauf.  As he put it, they didn't spend that extra money to plumb the wort through a sight glass for nothing.

 Me, I'll just use that extra 2 minutes to sip a little more coffee.  ;D

Offline Will's Swill

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2011, 06:50:25 pm »


Here's a link to his test...

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/41534.html

Are you getting the right link?  This one is about trub from kettle to fermenter, as opposed to draff from mash tun.  Unless I'm missing something...
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Offline Bad Brewer

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2011, 08:27:41 pm »
Boiled it tonight.

I think its going to turn out fine.  It was very (more than typical) cloudy going into the kettle, but when I killed the heat you could see a lot of break material chunking together with clear golden wort in between.  As usual, the march pump and plate chiller mixed everything together.  Used a funnel with a fine mesh screen going into my conical, minimal amount of material captured there.  It was also very cloudy going into the fermentor.

My mash also still hit my predicted efficiency (~70%), my post boil gravity (unusually so) was exactly what I calculated it should be.  I'm rarely that accurate!  And this was without any pH buffer (thought I had some 5.2, but didn't, and realized it only as I was mixing in my grain and strike water), pH was a little high at 5.8-6.0.  Let it mash 90 min.  Single batch sparge, minimal recirc, etc.

It should clear up with a couple weeks time though.

Now to go clean up the mess  :P


Offline malzig

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2011, 08:19:14 am »
It's not just clarity. I think it yields a cleaner taste. Remember, everything that goes in the kettle gets boiled as well.
The time doesn't bother me.  The wasted effort does.
I've read read many opinions on forums, books, etc., by the experts, and while many are correct, some I just have to disagree with. This is one of them.  I've also discussed this very topic with the head brewer at a small craft brewery and he agrees that you should make every effort, within reason, to achieve clarity during vorlauf.  As he put it, they didn't spend that extra money to plumb the wort through a sight glass for nothing.

 Me, I'll just use that extra 2 minutes to sip a little more coffee.  ;D
[/quote]
I could care less about the minor lost time or effort, I just hate the propagation of another brewing myth that causes brewers to look in the wrong place for solutions to their problems.  I've heard of brewers vorlaufing for as much as an hour to get clear runnings, however, which is a waste of time.

A lot of brewers hold this opinion, but the facts show that clear runoff, after the initial vorlauf to remove husk material, is not required for visually clear or clean tasting beer.  I rarely, if ever, vorlauf more than a quart and I get crystal clear beer without finings or extended cold conditioning.

I suppose that, perhaps, it might help in certain situations.  For instance, if you have troublesome water chemistry.  I can't speak to that.  Or, perhaps pro-brewers find they need to do this because they crush so finely, tearing the husks to very small pieces that don't get filtered out well.  In either case, that's just supposition, much like the idea that clear runoff is needed for clean beer.

Offline Bad Brewer

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Re: Is This A Problem?
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2011, 08:46:00 am »
Learn new stuff in here all the time.  It's pretty cool, wish is signed up years ago.  I had always thought, probably because of reading, that recirculating until you had fairly clear running impacted the clarity of the finished product.  I also thought it increased extraction efficiency.


Have almost always done that with all grain, interesting to know that it isn't necessarily the case.