Author Topic: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"  (Read 7783 times)

Offline dmtaylor

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1336
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2011, 10:11:02 AM »
You forgot to include a prohibition on the use of peat malt in your rant.  Just trying to help...

Oh-ho.... peat smoked malt is acceptable, but only in quantities of 0.5 ounce or less per 5 gallons.  My recent Scotch ale proved this to myself.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2011, 10:26:06 AM »
Thanks but I understand where and how IPA was developed.  Don't really need IPA 101.  My point is that it is already a style.  As people started adding more and more hops and upping the alcohol content, it morphed into American IPA which is a lot different than traditional IPA.  It seems to have retained the I portion of the name because it was heavier hopped and higher alcohol from what I can gather. That seems to be the only thing tying this to an IPA.

American Pale Ale started the same way as American IPA.  The only difference is that you were around and paying attention when it happened.  American brewers all call their products IPAs.  They used to be in the same judging category.  If you made a traditional IPA, it would do horribly because judges would expect the American version.  So we split them.  I invented the names American IPA and English IPA to distinguish them for judging purposes.  It's a shorthand.  People understand what it means.  If you say "Black IPA" then I understand it's an IPA with sinamar.  If you say "Imperial Brown IPA", I know it's a strong IPA with chocolate malt.  If you say "American Dark Ale", I don't know if you mean a porter, a stout, a black IPA, or something else.  Category names don't have to mean something historically.  Was anything ever called "Classic American Pilsner" or a "Northern German Altbier"?

If you've got a better system, let's hear it.  What the BJCP does is meant to simplify judging; it's impossible to get it to align to every beer in the marketplace and what each of them is called.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

ccarlson

  • Guest
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2011, 10:30:25 AM »
But why India at all?  It's never been to India and probably not going to India.  It has alcohol and hops in it, doesn't mean that India has to be part of it.
Call it American Black Ale if you like but I don't get why it has to refer to IPA.

I agree. The name makes no sense to me either.

Offline beersk

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2197
  • In the night!
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2011, 10:46:49 AM »
Some of these names are getting rather oxymoronic:

Black India PALE Ale - so it it black or is it pale?  Lol  (I know - it's black but the name is funny).

Now a 'Pale' Northern English Brown - so it is pal or is it brown?  ;) 


Shouldn't we be calling 'Black IPA's' IBA?  India Black Ale?  Seems more fitting.

Well, guy, there are white Africans, thus there could be white African Americans...what be your point, son?
Do white people born in Africa go by something other than African?  Seems we always assume African Americans are black.  We even call people African American when they're from the Dominican Republic.  Make sense?  Of course not, friend. 
I find all this labeling rather shallow and pedantic, mmmyes shallow and pedantic. Just gotta put a label on everything don't we?  Gotta claim things for our own (CDA) don't we?  What could be more arrogant, shallow and pedantic than the North westerners trying to claim this beer style as their own when they didn't even create it!!
Enough of this!

Like someone else said, American Black Ale, if you wanna put a label on it.
Watch out for those Cross Dressing Amateurs!

Jesse

Offline Beer Monger

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • ---Michael Dieterle--------- ---Seattle, WA
    • View Profile
    • Beer Monger - Adventures In the Wonderful World of Beer.
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2011, 10:52:39 AM »
Some of these names are getting rather oxymoronic:

Black India PALE Ale - so it it black or is it pale?  Lol  (I know - it's black but the name is funny).

Now a 'Pale' Northern English Brown - so it is pal or is it brown?  ;) 


Shouldn't we be calling 'Black IPA's' IBA?  India Black Ale?  Seems more fitting.

Well, guy, there are white Africans, thus there could be white African Americans...what be your point, son?
Do white people born in Africa go by something other than African?  Seems we always assume African Americans are black.  We even call people African American when they're from the Dominican Republic.  Make sense?  Of course not, friend. 
I find all this labeling rather shallow and pedantic, mmmyes shallow and pedantic. Just gotta put a label on everything don't we?  Gotta claim things for our own (CDA) don't we?  What could be more arrogant, shallow and pedantic than the North westerners trying to claim this beer style as their own when they didn't even create it!!
Enough of this!

Like someone else said, American Black Ale, if you wanna put a label on it.

I'm not sure how the race anaolgy applies, but yeah, American IPA vs. 'original' British IPA - either way.  I was just making a funny observaton - not trying to start a debate on the subject. 
Beer Monger's Blog
Follow my Beer Monger page on Facebook!

Drink responsibly and stay safe out there.

Offline SpanishCastleAle

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2011, 11:04:14 AM »
Quote
All of the ones you mention are references to strength and make sense in that context.  Something can't be black and pale, no more than it can be invisible and pink.

Invisible Pink Ale, I like it.

This is not a style I expect to like (never tried it, too much homebrew to drink to drink many commercial beers and I'm not a hophead) so the RDW homebrewer in me doesn't really care...but the pedantic nerd in me says don't give it an oxymoronic name (Black and Pale) nor a historically inaccurate name (Cascadian).  Why do we have to latch onto some previously used words anyway, let's make up a new word for the style.  Like...Vermontener.  Or Sinamarian Ale.  Or Noonanian Ale.  CDA and BIPA are so unimaginative. :)  I think if I brew one I'll just call it Johnson. ;)

yay Swamp Head Brewery!

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2011, 11:16:29 AM »
Sinamarian Ale

I like it.  Sounds like something they'd drink on NCC-1701.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline Beer Monger

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • ---Michael Dieterle--------- ---Seattle, WA
    • View Profile
    • Beer Monger - Adventures In the Wonderful World of Beer.
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2011, 11:21:58 AM »
Sinamarian Ale

I like it.  Sounds like something they'd drink on NCC-1701.
On that note, I've always wondered why Romulan 'Ale' is blue (and non-carbonated).  What the heck kind of grains do they grow on that planet!?  lol

Beer Monger's Blog
Follow my Beer Monger page on Facebook!

Drink responsibly and stay safe out there.

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2011, 11:25:19 AM »
It's non-carbonated so they don't have to replace it between takes.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline Beer Monger

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • ---Michael Dieterle--------- ---Seattle, WA
    • View Profile
    • Beer Monger - Adventures In the Wonderful World of Beer.
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2011, 11:27:04 AM »
It's non-carbonated so they don't have to replace it between takes.

Takes?  You mean it's a show?  I thought we had a window to the future!

(I'm sure you're right - that's also why you never see ice in drinks much in TV or films - it melts between takes). 
Beer Monger's Blog
Follow my Beer Monger page on Facebook!

Drink responsibly and stay safe out there.

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »
As for the name . . . I refuse to call it a Black IPA.  Don't like the name CDA?  Come up with something else, I don't care as long as it makes some sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? Because they aren't pale? We live with Imperial IPA which is not got anything to do with imperialism and Double IPA which are not double of a normal IPA and barleywine which are not wine as wine is made from must and I could go on and on. Why is this one misnomer the one everyone is hung up on?
All of the ones you mention are references to strength and make sense in that context.  Something can't be black and pale, no more than it can be invisible and pink.

Back in the 90s when Greg Noonan and John Maier were making these and most of the people advocating the CDA name (or the idea that these were recently invented) were in diapers, nobody seemed to mind having them described as black IPA. I think normal rational people that are trying to communicate and not be pedantic understand what that means.
I understand what is meant (not saying I'm normal or rational), I said it doesn't make sense.  I didn't invent the name CDA and don't care one way or the other if that is what people call it, and I never said a brewer can't call their beer whatever they like or that they have to consult me when they name them.  The day brewers start doing things based on what I like they will all open up within walking distance of my house, give me free beer, not make any American hefes, and have a smoke beer in the rotation.

Imperial only makes sense as a descriptor of high strength because you and I and the other beer drinkers agree that it does. Outside of the beer context, or by simply using denotation, Imperial makes as little sense to describe a strong beer which is unrelated to Imperialism as black IPA to describe a beer which is a lot like an IPA but black. As far as I can tell we did all agree to the general "black IPA" type terms for many years until a targeted naming campaign for a style at least 15 years old was begun last year. If brewery A wants to call theirs CDA then fine, we all know what is in the bottle basically. If brewery B wants to call it Black IPA, same story. The only people that I think need to figure out what to call it are bodies like the BA and BJCP that may need to promulgate a description of the style. I don't see why the rest of us should deeply care what they or what the individual breweries call it. If the consumer has an idea of what is in the bottle or what is going to come out of the tap, mission accomplished.

I think beer styles are misnomers nearly as often as they aren't. I do not understand the fixation on this one in particular. I mean, weissbier isn't white, amiright? Let's campaign to call it Bavarian Straw to maybe Amberish Ale. I'm sure they'll appreciate our efforts and our correction on the meaning of the word white.


Offline dmtaylor

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1336
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2011, 11:32:25 AM »
LOL (to the Star Trek references)!  (and I thought I'd never use the term LOL)

Seriously, folks... about 99% of these black colored ales would fit just perfectly into either the existing Robust Porter or American Stout categories.  I think it's time to wake up and smell what's already been out there for many many years.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 11:34:55 AM by dmtaylor »
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8808
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2011, 11:50:58 AM »
I think that styles will evolve and develop as they have since the development of lighter colored lagers during the 19th century. As can be witnessed by this thread, we are continuing to see this development. It's an evolutionary process of sorts and as the craft beer movement continues to evolve at it's current pace, we will be challenged as a community to grasp and embrace these developments.

We are witnessing the largest craft beer movement in history. Microbreweries have been popping up all over the country at a record pace and as they do, we will continue to see more and more beer styles development over time. BTW...I think it's a beautiful thing.

Don't resist it...you can't stop it.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 11:54:14 AM by bluesman »
Ron Price

Offline Beer Monger

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • ---Michael Dieterle--------- ---Seattle, WA
    • View Profile
    • Beer Monger - Adventures In the Wonderful World of Beer.
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2011, 11:59:50 AM »
I think that styles will evolve and develop as they have since the development of lighter colored lagers during the 19th century. As can be witnessed by this thread, we are continuing to see this development. It's an evolutionary process of sorts and as the craft beer movement continues to evolve at it's current pace, we will be challenged as a community to grasp and embrace these developments.

We are witnessing the largest craft beer movement in history. Microbreweries have been popping up all over the country at a record pace and as they do, we will continue to see more and more beer styles development over time. BTW...I think it's a beautiful thing.

Don't resist it...you can't stop it.  ;)
Who wants to restrict it/stop it?  I LOVE it!  We've had several new breweries open up in Seattle in just the past year alone - and more are coming.  :) 
Beer Monger's Blog
Follow my Beer Monger page on Facebook!

Drink responsibly and stay safe out there.

Offline hokerer

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2639
  • Manassas, VA
    • View Profile
Re: Black IPA / Cascadian Dark Ale "Style"
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2011, 12:02:54 PM »
[Like someone else said, American Black Ale, if you wanna put a label on it.

Isn't that just about exactly what the Brewer's Association did with their guidelines...

American-Style Black Ale
American-style Black Ale is perceived to have medium high to high hop bitterness, flavor and aroma with medium-high alcohol content, balanced with a medium body. Fruity, floral and herbal character from hops of all origins may contribute character. The style is further characterized by a moderate degree of caramel malt character and dark roasted malt flavor and aroma. High astringency and high degree of burnt roast malt character should be absent.
Original Gravity (ºPlato) 1.056-1.075 (14-18.2 ºPlato) ● Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato) 1.012-1.018
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 12:16:40 PM by hokerer »
Joe