[Beer Monger]

So I had order WL German Lager yeast (my supplier doesn't list the #) and he tells me it isn't in so I need to sub something tomorrow when I go to pick up my order. Can anyone tell me what the # is and what a good sub would be?  Looking for a lager yeast for this O'fest as well as something for a good generic lager yeast. Thanks

There are lots of good suggestions in this thread.  Can you get any of those strains? 

WLP830
WY2206
etc.

[gmac]

Just checked the web. WL830 is what I had ordered. I will try to get 833.

[Jeff Renner]

I know WLP833 is the Ayinger strain; Jeff Renner was involved in obtaining it, so he can confirm.  I know this strain makes good lagers.  I used it in a CAP, and it was great, so it's not just for German beers.

Actually, Dan McConnell, a fellow Ann Arborite and friend, got the Ayinger yeast in the mid 90's (I think) from Germany via Herr Durst (don't know his first name).  Dan owned the Yeast Culture Kit Co. at the time and was producing yeast for GW Kent as well, and Kent was the exclusive distributor of Durst Malts.

When Arbor Brewing Co., our first local brewpub (established July, 1995), started brewing a lager, Dan provided five lager strains and they fermented a small amount of identical Pilsner wort with each at 50F, and then lagered it at 50F.  I was on the taste panel to chose the best along with Dan, the owners, Matt and Rene Greff, and the assistant brewer.  The Ayinger was my clear favorite and was the consensus favorite as well, although it wasn't unanimous.  (Of course, the owners' opinion was final.)  They used this strain until some time a few years ago when they switched to high pressure fermenting and lagering.

When Dan closed the YCKC about ten years ago, he transferred his collection of yeasts (several hundreds, kept at -80C) to WhiteLabs.  I think Marc Sedam of Raleigh, NC may actually have been responsible for providing the strain to WhiteLabs a bit before that, but I'm not certain.  I was somewhat involved with helping to chose its name, since they obviously couldn't call it "Ayinger."  Regardless, it is definitely the source of WLP833.

At first, WhiteLabs was going to distribute it as a Platinum strain two months a year, but I got an email campaign going via HomeBrew Digest (HBD) to convince that Chris White there was enough demand to make it available year-round.  We even had Australian homebrewers sending email!  We convinced them to put it on the regular year-round list and it's stayed there, so I guess Chris thinks it's popular enough to keep it there.

It is absolutely my favorite yeast for most lagers, including CAPs. as Gordon says.  (I think that that is part of the official description by my suggestion.)  It emphasizes malt, which is nice for a CAP since while is is a malt/hop balanced beer, it is not 100% malt, so the malt boost is welcome.  I have a CAP on right now that is fantastic, even though it hasn't lagered enough to be clear yet.  I'm trying to stay away from it for another two weeks.

For malt-driven lagers such as Helles, any bock or Vienna/Martzen/Fest, it is also my clear first choice.

In a separate post I will make some suggestions for putting together a O'fest.

[Jeff Renner]

Here are some thoughts on my favorite way to make a Vienna or its bigger brothers.

I use 100% German Vienna malt and use a pseudo-decoction as I described in an article in March/April 2010 Zymurgy.  This involves two parallel mashes in much the manner of an American cereal mash.  A portion of the malt, say 20-25%, is mashed at around 150F for 30 minutes, then boiled for ~ 30 minutes.  I actually use a pressure cooker, with a smaller pot in the bit pressure cooker so there is no direct heat to the malt, and so no need for stirring to avoid scorching.

Regardless of how I boil this smaller mash, I mash in the rest of the malt at ~144F for full fermentability, then after 30-45 minutes, I add the boiling hot smaller mash to boost the combined mash to about 158F and rest it there for another 30-45 minutes.  There is sufficient enzyme action to convert any starches released by the boil.

The advantage of this pseudo-decoction is that it produces lots of tasty, malty melanoidins.  It also works great with all-dark-Munich malt for Dunkels and dark bocks.

For bittering, I like to use one of the Pacific Northwest derivatives of the noble hops such as Mt. Hood.  I find these to be reliably fresher than European imports, and less expensive.

A Vienna (and O'Fest and Martzen) is an elegant beer and should holler MALT! and whisper hops, so keep the bittering in check.  No need for aroma hops.

[Jeff Renner]

I think Marc Sedam of Raleigh, NC may actually have been responsible for providing the strain to WhiteLabs a bit before that, but I'm not certain.

Upon further reflection, I don't think that Marc was involved with providing this yeast to WhiteLabs, but rather the Samiclaus and perhaps the Mexican lager.  I may well have sent it to them myself.  I remember sending more than one off by FedEx.

I'm only posting this to provide some history for future researchers. ;-)

[tygo]

Kristen England's yeast chart says that 2487 is the WY equivalent of 833.  Yea/Nea?  Any history behind how WY got it?

[Jeff Renner]

Kristen England's yeast chart says that 2487 is the WY equivalent of 833.  Yea/Nea?  Any history behind how WY got it?

I don't see that number at all in the Wyeast yeast chart. http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain.cfm

[gordonstrong]

Thanks, Jeff. I knew you'd have the full story. I remember the email campaign. And I'm really happy it's a year-round strain. Now, if only the Orval strain was...

[hopfenundmalz]

Kristen England's yeast chart says that 2487 is the WY equivalent of 833.  Yea/Nea?  Any history behind how WY got it?

I don't see that number at all in the Wyeast yeast chart. http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain.cfm

Jeff, you have to look in the Private Strain section, and it was on in Jan-March 2011.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/PC1Q2011.cfm

"Direct from the Austrian Alps" makes me wonder if it is the same as 833.  Aying is between Munich and Innsbruck, so maybe they were clouding the origin a little.  Will wait until some else comes along with the inside story.

[Jeff Renner]

Kristen England's yeast chart says that 2487 is the WY equivalent of 833.  Yea/Nea?  Any history behind how WY got it?

I don't see that number at all in the Wyeast yeast chart. http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain.cfm

Jeff, you have to look in the Private Strain section, and it was on in Jan-March 2011.

Thanks, Jeff.  I didn't find it even when doing a search on their site for 2487.  I guess their search engine isn't thorough.

One possible difference between the two strains is that Wyeast recommends a diacetyl rest.  I have never had had even a hint of diacetyl from 833, and I am well known in my club to very sensitive to it.  I generally ferment it at 48-50F.

[SpanishCastleAle]

When Wyeast distributed the 2487-PC strain back in late '09 I e-mailed them about it, also mentioning that the 'yeast comparison' chart said it was the same as WLP833 and was the Ayinger strain.  They told me it was definitely not the Ayinger strain and provided enough hints that I could tell it was the Samiclaus strain (I had forgotten it was Samiclaus until Jeff mentioned it above).  I agree about not getting diacetyl from 833.

I then e-mailed Kirsten about it and was told they were aware (and had been for some time) but they just don't have the time to update it.

Also fwiw, the Wyeast 2124 strain is a little higher attenuator than some.  Those are my two favorite lager yeasts; Wyeast 2124 and WLP833, depending on what I want.  For an O-fest I prefer 833.  For highly attenuated lagers like a German Pils I like 2124.

EDIT: Just checked the Yeast Comparison chart and it says the WLP885 Zurich Lager yeast is the Samiclaus strain.  So maybe just maybe the 2487-PC is the same strain (originally) as WLP885.  If you check those yeasts on each mfrs' website, the attenuation numbers don't really match but then they often don't so I never put any stock into that.  It also seems that Wyeast is more conservative regarding D-rests (i.e. they suggest them more often than White); the White Labs site says Zurich lager diacetyl production is minimal.

[gordonstrong]

I have never had had even a hint of diacetyl from 833, and I am well known in my club to very sensitive to it.  I generally ferment it at 48-50F.

+1  Exactly my experience.

[gordonstrong]

"Direct from the Austrian Alps" makes me wonder if it is the same as 833.  Aying is between Munich and Innsbruck, so maybe they were clouding the origin a little.  Will wait until some else comes along with the inside story.

That suggests Schloss Eggenberg to me. 

[denny]

Some of my best lagers were made with 2206.

My all time favorite lager yeast.  Clean, easy to work with.....

[tygo]

Great information as always.  Thanks!