Author Topic: Oktoberfest 2011  (Read 13714 times)

Offline bluesman

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2011, 09:47:16 AM »
After that month, I'd like to raise the temp to closer to 60 for a dicetyl rest.  How may days should I leave it at that temp for the rest?  And after that, should I chill the beer back to the 42 degree range over a few days before racking to the 2nd fermenter?  
Thanks.

I like to leave the primary at 60-68 degrees for 3-5 days. Then take a sample and taste/smell it to see if you still pick up diacetyl. It's usually mostly dissipated after a few days but the key is to still have yeast in suspension prior to the d-rest (typically 70% attenuation) in order to clean up the diacetyl.

I wouldn't worry about a d rest until you taste the beer a month down the road and see if it's needed.

I agree with Denny in that a D-rest is needed only if you actually have it so check it before you act on it.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 09:48:59 AM by bluesman »
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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2011, 09:52:30 AM »
After that month, I'd like to raise the temp to closer to 60 for a dicetyl rest.  How may days should I leave it at that temp for the rest?  And after that, should I chill the beer back to the 42 degree range over a few days before racking to the 2nd fermenter? 
Thanks.

I like to leave the primary at 60-68 degrees for 3-5 days. Then take a sample and taste/smell it to see if you still pick up diacetyl. It's usually mostly dissipated after a few days but the key is to still have yeast in suspension prior to the d-rest (typically 70% attenuation) in order to clean up the diacetyl.

I wouldn't worry about a d rest until you taste the beer a month down the road and see if it's needed.

I agree with Denny in that a D-rest is needed only if you actually have it so check it before you act on it.

After the 1st month, however, I'm planning to move the beer to the 2nd fermenter.  So are you saying I should sample it just before racking to the 2nd fermenter to see if the D-Rest is needed? 

If it is needed, do I do it in the 1st or 2nd fermenter?  Or should I be leaving my beer in the 1st fermenter longer?

Sorry again w/ all the questions - 1st lager & I never have to think about this stuff w/ Ales!  ;) 
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2011, 10:01:47 AM »
I recommend not racking to the secondary fermenter as it is not necessary and can potentially have adverse affects (oxidation) on the beer. I suggest sampling the beer near the end of the ferment while in the primary and if you detect diacetyl then go ahead and do a D-rest. If you can't detect diacetyl then let it ferment to terminal gravity and keg from there. Let the beer decide.
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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2011, 10:12:24 AM »
I recommend not racking to the secondary fermenter as it is not necessary and can potentially have adverse affects (oxidation) on the beer. I suggest sampling the beer near the end of the ferment while in the primary and if you detect diacetyl then go ahead and do a D-rest. If you can't detect diacetyl then let it ferment to terminal gravity and keg from there. Let the beer decide.

I may need to grab a couple more kegs.  It sounds like it's a much better idea to lager (after fermentation is complete) in kegs rather than in a 2nd carboy(?)

The only reason I was gonna rack to a 2nd is for the lagering (I want it off the yeast for the 3-month lagering period, right?), and I didn't want to devoe a keg to that for 3 months.  But I guess I may have to.


I'll want to rack it off the lagering keg to another keg, under pressure, before serving though. 
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Offline denny

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2011, 10:14:36 AM »
IF you need to do a d rest, you want to do it in the primary.  The reason behind a d rest is that warmer temps make the yeast more active and they reduce the diacetyl.  If you rack to secondary before the d rest, you reduce the amount of yeast in there to work on it.  IF you're going to rack to secondary, you;ll be checking the gravity anyway, right?  So taste the sample and determine if you have diacetyl and if you need to do a rest.  And keep in mind what John Palmer says about it.  I've posted a bit of his response from the "Ask the Experts" section.

"Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering."
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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2011, 10:20:27 AM »
IF you need to do a d rest, you want to do it in the primary.  The reason behind a d rest is that warmer temps make the yeast more active and they reduce the diacetyl.  If you rack to secondary before the d rest, you reduce the amount of yeast in there to work on it.  IF you're going to rack to secondary, you;ll be checking the gravity anyway, right?  So taste the sample and determine if you have diacetyl and if you need to do a rest.  And keep in mind what John Palmer says about it.  I've posted a bit of his response from the "Ask the Experts" section.

"Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering."
Thanks Denny, but one last question I don't seem to be getting the answer to...

Can I/should I leave the beer in the primary fermenter for the 3-month lagering period (i.e. Do it ALL in the primary fermenter until I'm ready to move it to the serving kegs) or do I need to get the beer off the yeast and into kegs for lagering once the fermentation is complete? 

Tanks. 
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Offline denny

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2011, 10:28:47 AM »
I can't say for certain that you NEED to get the beer off the yeast for lagering, but I do.  I lager in a keg that I end up serving from.   I want to get the beer off the yeast so it's ready to go hen I'm done lagering.
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Offline gmac

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2011, 10:50:15 AM »
So is there a danger of doing a D rest if it's not needed?  I can't really say for sure that I've ever tasted diacetyl and although I've read the description (buttery, butterscotch etc), I'm not sure how well I'd do picking it out.  It's only 2 or 3 days in the primary at a warmer temp so besides the risk of dropping the carboy if you have to move it, is there a downside to doing a diacetyl rest as a preventative action? 

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2011, 10:52:30 AM »
I can't say for certain that you NEED to get the beer off the yeast for lagering, but I do.  I lager in a keg that I end up serving from.   I want to get the beer off the yeast so it's ready to go hen I'm done lagering.

OK.  Thanks. 
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Offline blatz

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2011, 10:52:56 AM »
So is there a danger of doing a D rest if it's not needed?  I can't really say for sure that I've ever tasted diacetyl and although I've read the description (buttery, butterscotch etc), I'm not sure how well I'd do picking it out.  It's only 2 or 3 days in the primary at a warmer temp so besides the risk of dropping the carboy if you have to move it, is there a downside to doing a diacetyl rest as a preventative action? 

i don't think there is.  I tend to do one almost everytime out of habit.  its just less pragmatic.
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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2011, 10:54:53 AM »
So is there a danger of doing a D rest if it's not needed?  I can't really say for sure that I've ever tasted diacetyl and although I've read the description (buttery, butterscotch etc), I'm not sure how well I'd do picking it out.  It's only 2 or 3 days in the primary at a warmer temp so besides the risk of dropping the carboy if you have to move it, is there a downside to doing a diacetyl rest as a preventative action? 

i don't think there is.  I tend to do one almost everytime out of habit.  its just less pragmatic.

That's kind of what I was thinking.  Why not do one anyway if there's no risk.  All it takes for me it a simple turn of the temp knob. 
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2011, 11:54:54 AM »
Can I/should I leave the beer in the primary fermenter for the 3-month lagering period (i.e. Do it ALL in the primary fermenter until I'm ready to move it to the serving kegs) or do I need to get the beer off the yeast and into kegs for lagering once the fermentation is complete?  

I like to ferment in the primary for three weeks then raise the temp to 60F for a week and then keg the beer. Lagering is done in the keg for at least 4 weeks but 8-12 is better IMO. The beer should be perfectly clear after 4 weeks of lagering YMMV. This is my SOP and you can experiment with it by varying the fermentation temps and lagering times. I like to use gelatin for clarifying the beer after fermentation.
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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2011, 10:09:08 AM »
I am a little late to the party brewing my O-fest this year. I'll be trying an all-grain fest for the first time and wanted to get everyone's opinion on my recipe.

4 lbs Vienna
3 lbs Munich
2.5 lbs Pilsner
0.5 lb Carapils
0.5 lb Caramunich
0.25 lb Melanoidin
1.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (60 min)
0.5 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (20 min)

Single Infusion at 153, batch sparge.

Also, I am going to try playing with my water profile, since I have had some trouble with my tap water recently. I am planning on just using distilled and adding minerals, but I have no idea what to look for when doing this. So far, I have come up with this for 3.5 gallons:

1g Gypsum
1g Calcium Chloride
3g Epsom Salt
1g Baking Soda
3g Non-iodized Salt
1g Chalk
2mL Lactic Acid

Any of you chemistry gurus care to help me out?

Offline bluesman

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2011, 07:04:17 PM »
I am a little late to the party brewing my O-fest this year. I'll be trying an all-grain fest for the first time and wanted to get everyone's opinion on my recipe.

4 lbs Vienna
3 lbs Munich
2.5 lbs Pilsner
0.5 lb Carapils
0.5 lb Caramunich
0.25 lb Melanoidin
1.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (60 min)
0.5 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (20 min)

Single Infusion at 153, batch sparge.

Also, I am going to try playing with my water profile, since I have had some trouble with my tap water recently. I am planning on just using distilled and adding minerals, but I have no idea what to look for when doing this. So far, I have come up with this for 3.5 gallons:

1g Gypsum
1g Calcium Chloride
3g Epsom Salt
1g Baking Soda
3g Non-iodized Salt
1g Chalk
2mL Lactic Acid

Any of you chemistry gurus care to help me out?

The recipe looks really good.

I'm not so sure about the water profile.....have you tried plugging it into Brunwater or another calculator?
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Offline lupulin5446

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2011, 07:31:03 PM »
An easy festbier recipe:
50% pilsner malt, 5% Weyerman caramunich III, 5% Weyerman carared, 35% light munich malt, 3% acid malt, 2% Weyerman cara-aroma (added at mash out to reduce 'roasted' flavors).  First-wort hop with 22 IBUs from noble hops-preferably Tettnang or Hallertau varieties.  Single infusion mash at 152-usually 30 minutes or less, boil 90 minutes, O.G. 1.055

pH is very important for this style of beer, both in the mash, and sparge water.  You will want a residual alkalinity as close to 0 as possible, and this can be easily achieved with gypsum and calcium chloride.  The high enzyme content from the pils malt will reduce the mash time.  This combined with the lower pH in the mash will leech fewer tannins from the barley hulls.  Cara-aroma contains no enzyme, so adding it at mash out will extract color and aroma while minimizing roasted notes that would be out of character.  First-wort hopping will enhance the 'noble hop' character.  

Most german lager strains are acceptable as long as they accentuate the malt character.  My fermentation profile may seem odd at first, but it has really worked well for me.  I pitch at 45 F for the first 72 hours (after first signs of fermentation).  Then raise to 48 for another 72 hours. after that, I raise the temp 1 degree per day until 58 F.  Usually it only needs 1-2 days at 58 to finish fermentation.  When fermentation has finished, I rack to the secondary vessel, and begin lowering the temperature over 72 hours.  In the first 24 hours I drop it to 50 F, in the second, 40 F, the third day I drop it to the final lagering temperature of 28-29 F.  Lager for 3-5 weeks depending on gravity of the beer.  For high gravity lagers, I double the fermentation times below 50 F.

Decoction mashes can be fun if you want to brew old-school, but are generally unnecessary with modern malts, unless you have unusually low enzyme content in your mash.  Heffeweizens can benefit from a single or double decoction because of the lower enzyme wheat malt as well as the high protein/glucan content that makes sparging an all-day event.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 07:34:01 PM by lupulin5446 »