Author Topic: Oktoberfest 2011  (Read 19424 times)

Offline pyrite

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2011, 10:40:08 PM »
Here are some thoughts on my favorite way to make a Vienna or its bigger brothers.

I use 100% German Vienna malt and use a pseudo-decoction as I described in an article in March/April 2010 Zymurgy.  This involves two parallel mashes in much the manner of an American cereal mash.  A portion of the malt, say 20-25%, is mashed at around 150F for 30 minutes, then boiled for ~ 30 minutes.  I actually use a pressure cooker, with a smaller pot in the bit pressure cooker so there is no direct heat to the malt, and so no need for stirring to avoid scorching.

I feel really dumb for asking this one, but I thought by mashing above 76-78C or higher it produces tannins. This gentleman, boils his malts? How is he not producing tannins when he boils his malts.  I've also read to keep the sparge water at 76C so that tannins are not extracted, and possibly the reduction of a band-aid taste.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2011, 02:04:53 AM »
all decoctions involve boiling the malt. don't ask me why no tannins. I am sure someone knows

also I don't think the bandaid flavour is from tannins. it's from phenols
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:06:46 AM by morticaixavier »
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2011, 02:17:31 AM »
Here are some thoughts on my favorite way to make a Vienna or its bigger brothers.

I use 100% German Vienna malt and use a pseudo-decoction as I described in an article in March/April 2010 Zymurgy.  This involves two parallel mashes in much the manner of an American cereal mash.  A portion of the malt, say 20-25%, is mashed at around 150F for 30 minutes, then boiled for ~ 30 minutes.  I actually use a pressure cooker, with a smaller pot in the bit pressure cooker so there is no direct heat to the malt, and so no need for stirring to avoid scorching.

I feel really dumb for asking this one, but I thought by mashing above 76-78C or higher it produces tannins. This gentleman, boils his malts? How is he not producing tannins when he boils his malts.  I've also read to keep the sparge water at 76C so that tannins are not extracted, and possibly the reduction of a band-aid taste.
It's the lower pH of the mash that makes it safe to boil without extracting tannins.  You know that rule about stopping the sparge when your pH is as high as 6.0 or so?  Same thing.  Boiling wort of 5.4 pH is just fine.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline pyrite

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2011, 03:16:50 AM »
Thanks morticaixavier, I do realize the band-aid preception is from phenol extracting, but I forgot it was a pH thing.  Man jeffy, everything about beer production seems to be pH related.  I never take any kind of pH readings, I hate pH in my beer.   When the sparge is going, I just taste and when the pour, into the kettle, from the sparge doesn't taste sweet is when I stop.  I need to buy a pH meter.   pH readings and adjustments just seem so complicated. 
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Offline tygo

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2011, 10:42:16 AM »
 pH readings and adjustments just seem so complicated. 

It's like anything else.  It seems complicated reading about it but once you get a pH meter and start taking using it it's really not that bad.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2011, 11:45:51 PM »
Thanks morticaixavier, I do realize the band-aid preception is from phenol extracting, but I forgot it was a pH thing.  Man jeffy, everything about beer production seems to be pH related.  I never take any kind of pH readings, I hate pH in my beer.   When the sparge is going, I just taste and when the pour, into the kettle, from the sparge doesn't taste sweet is when I stop.  I need to buy a pH meter.   pH readings and adjustments just seem so complicated. 

Do not fear.  The coolest thing about decoction mashing is that it evolved before any of our modern instruments were invented.  They found that well water plus malted grain in a certain proportion resulted in what turns out to be the perfect temp for an acid rest, without even having a pH meter.  Then they figured out that boiling a third ot the thick mash and adding it back brought the mash to a protein rest temp without even knowing what proteins are.   They figured out that it made the beer turn out better.  And so on until you get a perfect decoction with no thermometer, no pH meter, no hydrometer.
I have only owned a pH meter for a couple of years, but I've done decoctions successfully for a long time.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline pyrite

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2011, 03:24:01 AM »
Right on! Nice story. I'm all about the old school German decoction.  But I'll have to read up on pH stuff now. thanks.
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Offline SpanishCastleAle

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2011, 12:10:05 PM »
Right on! Nice story. I'm all about the old school German decoction.  But I'll have to read up on pH stuff now. thanks.
Kaiser has some great articles on braukaiser and Martin has a nice 'Water Knowledge' section in Bru'n Water.  We often talk about mash pH and it is very important but it also carries over to the finished beer.  The final pH also has an influence on the perception.

Offline Beer Monger

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2011, 02:26:52 PM »
Here's the recipe I've come up with for my Oktoberfest Lager.  I'm hoping to brew this Saturday the 7th, but I may have to push it off a week.  We'll see....

4.0lbs Vienna Malt
3.5lbs Pilsner Malt
2.0lbs Munich Malt
0.5lbs Crystal 60
.25lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine

0.5oz Hallertauer 60 Mins
0.5oz Spalter 60 Mins
0.5oz Hallertauer 20 Mins
0.5oz Spalter 20 Mins

Wyeast 2206 w/ 600ml starter

Now - this will be my first ever lager so I have a couple of quick questions:

-I assume it's OK to make my lager starter at Ale temps, so my starter is ready in a day or two(?)

-How long do I leave my lager in the primary fermenter?

-Will I need to rack the lager off the yeast after an amount of time or can I go straight from the primary fermenter (after fermentation is complete) to the kegs for conditioning? 

Thanks guys!   8)
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2011, 02:36:10 PM »
Here's the recipe I've come up with for my Oktoberfest Lager.  I'm hoping to brew this Saturday the 7th, but I may have to push it off a week.  We'll see....

4.0lbs Vienna Malt
3.5lbs Pilsner Malt
2.0lbs Munich Malt
0.5lbs Crystal 60
.25lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine

0.5oz Hallertauer 60 Mins
0.5oz Spalter 60 Mins
0.5oz Hallertauer 20 Mins
0.5oz Spalter 20 Mins

Wyeast 2206 w/ 600ml starter

Now - this will be my first ever lager so I have a couple of quick questions:

-I assume it's OK to make my lager starter at Ale temps, so my starter is ready in a day or two(?)

-How long do I leave my lager in the primary fermenter?

-Will I need to rack the lager off the yeast after an amount of time or can I go straight from the primary fermenter (after fermentation is complete) to the kegs for conditioning? 

Thanks guys!   8)

It's OK to make your lager starter at 65-70 degrees.

Leave it in the primary until you've reached terminal gravity. Typically about 2-3weeks depending on temp and yeast strain. Let your gravity be your guide. You may need to do a D-rest at 60 degrees depending.

I like to go straight from primary to keg.
Ron Price

Offline Beer Monger

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2011, 02:40:10 PM »
OK.  Thanks for the info.  :) 
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2011, 02:41:27 PM »
Wyeast 2206 w/ 600ml starter
-I assume it's OK to make my lager starter at Ale temps, so my starter is ready in a day or two(?)

Yes, but you'll probably want to make a much bigger starter than that. Starting with a fresh smack pack, MrMalty says about 3.0 L on a stir plate, 4.5 L shaken. (5.25 gal, 1.050 OG)
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2011, 02:47:20 PM »
Wyeast 2206 w/ 600ml starter
-I assume it's OK to make my lager starter at Ale temps, so my starter is ready in a day or two(?)

Yes, but you'll probably want to make a much bigger starter than that. Starting with a fresh smack pack, MrMalty says about 3.0 L on a stir plate, 4.5 L shaken. (5.25 gal, 1.050 OG)

+1

I didn't notice that but definitely agree with Sean.
Ron Price

Offline SpanishCastleAle

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2011, 03:12:19 PM »
Now - this will be my first ever lager so I have a couple of quick questions:

-I assume it's OK to make my lager starter at Ale temps, so my starter is ready in a day or two(?)

-How long do I leave my lager in the primary fermenter?

-Will I need to rack the lager off the yeast after an amount of time or can I go straight from the primary fermenter (after fermentation is complete) to the kegs for conditioning? 
I let the starter ferment at room temp but give it at least 24-48 hours in the fridge before I decant/pitch, then pitch cold.

I leave it in the primary until it's a couple of points from FG (determined by an FFT) but I increase the temp towards the end.

You can go straight from primary to keg.  I like to harvest the yeast so I tend to rack as soon as it's within a few points of FG and secondary in a keg, then do a closed transfer to another keg (going from liquid OUT to liquid OUT, pushing with CO2 into a keg purged with CO2) after 3-4 weeks of that.  Lots of options, check out Kaiser's Fermenting Lagers article for some good info.

Offline Beer Monger

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Re: Oktoberfest 2011
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2011, 03:42:56 PM »
Wyeast 2206 w/ 600ml starter
-I assume it's OK to make my lager starter at Ale temps, so my starter is ready in a day or two(?)

Yes, but you'll probably want to make a much bigger starter than that. Starting with a fresh smack pack, MrMalty says about 3.0 L on a stir plate, 4.5 L shaken. (5.25 gal, 1.050 OG)

That much?  That's a starter thats more than a gallon (3.7L = 1 Gallon).  That seems extreme (1/4 of the batch!?)
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