[punatic]

Again, you don't have to be groped.  It's the people in opposition to the scan that CHOOSE to be groped.

That is absurd!  What we have is a government agency that is so concerned with being politically correct that it refuses even considering using effective means of insuring terrorists do not board airliners.

I find the TSA's methods highly offensive and see them for what they are; an egregious violation of my rights under the Fourth Ammendment to the US Constitution.

Living where I do, driving to other states is not an option.  So, I have a choice to make: get irradiated, get groped, or stay home.

It's not looking too good for NHC '11 in San Diego.

[maxieboy]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

ATTRIBUTION:   BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.—The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

My country ain't what it used to be.

+ a million.

[narvin]

Again, you don't have to be groped.  It's the people in opposition to the scan that CHOOSE to be groped.

That is absurd!  What we have is a government agency that is so concerned with being politically correct that it refuses even considering using effective means of insuring terrorists do not board airliners.

I find the TSA's methods highly offensive and see them for what they are; an egregious violation of my rights under the Fourth Ammendment to the US Constitution.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  What are these effective means that they aren't using because of "political correctness"?  Only groping people wearing turbans?

Balancing individual rights with the safety of the public in public places has always been an issue.  There are laws and precautions taken on the roads, in schools, in courthouses, etc that can seem at odds with individual privacy.  

My biggest problem with the TSA is that I don't think they're doing a good job  But please, stop flattering yourself -- no one wants to look at your genitals, especially not the poor guy making a crap salary behind the scanner.

[ccarlson]

I say profile all they want. That would be much more effective than groping little girls.

[thirsty]

This is why I drive or just stay home.

[a10t2]

Not true. All airports don't have scanners and if you set off the metal detector, for any reason, you're going to get groped.

That hasn't been my experience. Generally you get a second (and sometimes a third, or fourth, or...) try through the metal detector, and if you still can't figure out what's setting it off they break out the little metal-detecting wand. If THAT is still picking up something, and they can't tell what it is, you get invited to the little room.

[narcout]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

ATTRIBUTION:   BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.—The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

My country ain't what it used to be.

No, it's getting better; civil liberties in this country have been steadily improving.  Look at where we were just 60 years ago (Brown v. The Board of Education was decided in 1954).

Also, wasn't Benjamin Franklin a slave owner?

[ccarlson]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

ATTRIBUTION:   BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.—The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

My country ain't what it used to be.

No, it's getting better; civil liberties in this country have been steadily improving.  Look at where we were just 60 years ago (Brown v. The Board of Education was decided in 1954).

Also, wasn't Benjamin Franklin a slave owner?

Yes he was, but he also wasn't ever patted down at an airport. 

[phillamb168]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

ATTRIBUTION:   BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.—The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

My country ain't what it used to be.

No, it's getting better; civil liberties in this country have been steadily improving.  Look at where we were just 60 years ago (Brown v. The Board of Education was decided in 1954).

Also, wasn't Benjamin Franklin a slave owner?

Yes, I suppose you're right - everyone, regardless of race, sex, creed, sexual preference or religion is equally required to submit to an intrusive search in the name of "security." Also, Patriot Act. I think that's all that really needs to be said in terms of the current state of CivLib in the US.

[thirsty]

If you can't afford a doctor, go to an airport - you'll get a free x-ray and a breast exam, and if you mention Al Qaeda, you'll get a free colonoscopy.

[uthristy]

Yes, he's a pedophile, and it's a horrifying thing, but that doesn't mean it's systemic in the TSA.  The man in the bathroom, the school nurse, or even your kid's doctor could be a pedophile, too, .

I guess I don't see the point of the OP.  How is this different from the priest, policeman, or teacher that were arrested for child porn here?  It's a travesty no matter who does it.  Profession doesn't seem to equal proclivity.

Funny but doctors,police,ect are trained pro`s not some flunking recruited via pizza boxes.  or signs at  gas stations.

TSA treat ever flyer as as possible terrorist so its only fair to return the favor given tsa track record- drug smugglers,perverts,lairs, thieves..

It's at least as likely that they would do everything possible to make an example of him.

Really? ever read about TSA agents damaging planes and then threatening the airlines not to report it.
http://tinyurl.com/3s9gsrr

Even when caught on video (tsa agents) not following the law or rules they say its was a simple mistake and the worker(s) will get more training.

How many lies>
TSA testified that the scanners could not save,network,print any pictures (EPIC has the contract that proves they are a requirement)
TSA testified  the scanners would not be the primary screening technique in US airports
TSA stated the scanners tested safe, but won't allow a peer review testing...

Again, you don't have to be groped.  It's the people in opposition to the scan that CHOOSE to be groped.

Wrong! ever get a SSSS on your boarding pass? guess what your going to get groped.

TSA has a habit of groping people even after getting scanned, seems they like single female flyer. Odd huh
Pistole has stated repeatedly that some frisks are done at random to verify that there are no threats that the scanner missed.
Oh lets not forget he stated that TSA now has up-to 100% failure rate even with the scanners & groping. So they went from a 70% rate to 100% and they claim to be the last line of defense

As I have posted before my wife was getting the extra treatment everytime she flew for her job- USA.gov: Federal Employee and this was years before the new patdowns. When ever I flew with her I too got the extra treatment, this is a cleaner version of what  I would like to post but >

"the pat-down I am receiving at the airport. You should have no problem with it. I'm going to brush your testicles pushing them around with the backs of my hands, repeatedly. I'm going to open hand rub your butt. I'm going to slide the backs of my hands across your penis, and I'm going to stick my hand, to the web of the thumb in your pants. I'm going to describe all of this ahead of time, but I'm going to use euphemistic words like "resistance" .


That is my normal pat down on every trip, sounds like fun huh, oh lets not forget bags/hands/shoes/camera getting wiped for testing.

So I have a choice - get irradiated with ionizing radiation or have somebody groping my boys. As cancer runs in my mothers family I will not go thur the scanners, nope ain't going to happen.

Scientist are also in agreement that NO AMOUNT of ionizing radiation is safe. It is cumulative, some people are more damaged by it's effects, and irradiating millions of people will cause some cancers.


So even with all this going on just how many terrorist has the tsa stopped? zero and yet planes are not falling outta the sky.

[narcout]

Yes, I suppose you're right - everyone, regardless of race, sex, creed, sexual preference or religion is equally required to submit to an intrusive search in the name of "security." Also, Patriot Act. I think that's all that really needs to be said in terms of the current state of CivLib in the US.

I see where you are coming from (and we are in agreement regarding the Patriot Act).  Balancing individual liberties against national security is, and will continue to be, a difficult undertaking.  I do, however, have confidence that we will get it right eventually.

Regarding airport security, how are things in France?  My recollection from various trips to Western Europe is that things are quite a bit more strict over there, and it is not uncommon to see security personnel armed with some pretty serious looking firearms.

[nicneufeld]

Balancing individual liberties against national security is, and will continue to be, a difficult undertaking. 

I agree and this is why the Franklin quote regarding essential liberty and temporal security is nothing more than a pithy quote...it isn't very meaningful because all governments trade some modicum of liberty for security, the only thing is the moveable definition of what liberties are "essential", and I think you'll find 100 people have 100 unique answers to that. 

To me, flying on an airline is no longer a purely individual right...by getting on the plane with a hundred or more other people, your rights become a little more collective than they otherwise would; there is an interdependency.  You can wax eloquent about your rights, but unless you're getting into your own private plane, other people's right to safety does impinge on your liberty to some extent.  Seriously though, what if the government granted an exemption to an "at your own risk!" airline, where you do away with all but the most basic security measures.  There's your free market solution!    Just hope your plane doesn't taxi too close to em!   

Burqa ban is in place in France.  Now there is an interesting question of freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

PS travel by car and boat is more fun! 

[a10t2]

Scientist are also in agreement that NO AMOUNT of ionizing radiation is safe.

There's nowhere near universal consensus, actually. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13517659

To say nothing of the fact that anyone concerned about that level of exposure should not be flying at all, ever. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21444831

[punatic]

Wow!  When did kool-aid become a homebrew beer style?