[speed]

How about setting up a global "decoction day". We can all do our decoctions and then discuss how we screwed them up.
I'm gonna do one this weekend too but for a cream ale.

sorry, i'm out. did a triple decoction this winter on a doppelbock it was my first and last . made a real good beer but was it worth it? i doubt it, as it took over 6 hours maybe closer to 8 if i remember, i try to put it out of my memory. but it did take first place in nebraskas statewide homebrewer club comp.

[ccarlson]

I'd be very surprised if you can't tell the difference in the finished products and I'll bet you like it. Now, whether it was worth it or not may be another story.

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Thanks for the responses, guys!

Edit: I found the remaining answers I was looking for by rereading Kai's decoction page on braukaiser.com and rewatching his decoction videos.  Those are exceptionally helpful resources. Thanks, Kai!

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Matt, you are not alone as I am going to do a triple decoction on a Bo-Pils this weekend for a beer I've entered in the Pilsner Urquell competition. It will probably be a 10 hr brewday. 

Pilsner Urquell's mash is the same triple-decoction method used for the past 75 years. Thick portions of the mash are drawn off at three different times over the course of more than four hours. Each decoction is heated to saccharification temperature, then boiled briefly, and finally returned to the mash. The mash begins with cold water stirred into the grains; a single infusion brings the temperature to 95F for an acid rest. The water-to-grain ratio is 1.85:1. The first decoction raises the temperature to around 127F for a short protein rest; the second addition raises the mash temperature to 143F for a beta-rest; and the third brings the temperature to about 163 °F for mash-out.

I'll be wearing my brewing shoes. 

 

That's ambitious, Ron!  You'd better be wearing brewing shoes!  Of course, pants are still optional.

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Here is the hefe recipe I'll be brewing:

Bavarian Hefeweizen
15-A Weizen/Weissbier
Author: Matt Schwandt

Size: 5.26 gal
Efficiency: 85.0%
Attenuation: 77.0%
Calories: 170.08 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.051 (1.044 - 1.052)
Terminal Gravity: 1.012 (1.010 - 1.014)
Color: 5.61 (2.0 - 8.0)
Alcohol: 5.18% (4.3% - 5.6%)
Bitterness: 11.8 (8.0 - 15.0)

Ingredients:
5.0 lb Wheat Malt Pale
2.5 lb Pilsner Malt
1.0 lb Dark Munich
.50 lb Carahell®
.09 lb Acidulated Malt
.75 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.25 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1 ea White Labs WLP380 Hefeweizen IV Ale

[anthony]

I would drop the carahell and the dark munich...

[Pawtucket Patriot]

I would drop the carahell and the dark munich...

This raises an issue that's been rolling around in my head lately. I included dark Munich (as opposed to light, which I normally include in a hefe) before I decided to try a decoction, thinking that I could achieve a more pronounced maltiness this way. With a decoction, however, I might not need to go with the dark stuff.

I've been including carahell in my hefes for years and I like what it adds.  But maybe for the purpose of this little decoction experiment, I should keep the grain bill very simple, such as 60% wheat / 40% pils.

[nateo]

I would drop the carahell and the dark munich...

Agreed. You can make a killer Hefe with just wheat malt, pale/pils, and acid malt (if necessary).

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Alright gents, here is my revised recipe with the decoction schedule.  I decided to go with a pretty simple grain bill.  I like the idea of adding a little chocolate for just a smidge of color (I figured chocolate wheat was appropriate).

Bavarian Hefeweizen
15-A Weizen/Weissbier
Author: Matt Schwandt

Size: 5.33 gal
Efficiency: 85.0%
Attenuation: 80.0%
Calories: 167.24 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.051 (1.044 - 1.052)
Terminal Gravity: 1.010 (1.010 - 1.014)
Color: 5.1 (2.0 - 8.0)
Alcohol: 5.31% (4.3% - 5.6%)
Bitterness: 12.0 (8.0 - 15.0)

Ingredients:
5.5 lb Wheat Malt Pale
3.2 lb Pilsner Malt
.27 lb Acidulated Malt
.03 lb Chocolate Wheat Malt
.75 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.25 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1 L White Labs WLP380 Hefeweizen IV Ale

Hochkurz Double Decoction
- 9.1 qts @ 121 ==> ferulic acid rest @ 111-113 [15 min]
- 10.7 qts @ 190 ==> maltose saccharification @ 144 [20 min]
- Pull thick 5.6 qt decoction; raise temp to 158 (2-4 degrees per minute increase); rest for 15 minutes; bring to boil and boil for 15 minutes, stirring often
- Remix thick decoction a little at a time to hit dextrine saccharification @ 158 [45 min]
- Pull thin 5.05 qt decoction and gradually bring to a boil; boil for 10 min
- Remix thin decoction a little at a time to hit mashout temp @ 168 [10 min]
- 15 qts @ 183 ==> Sparge @ 170 [10 min]
- 1.5g CaSO4, 1.5g CaCl added to kettle

Fermentation notes:
- Pitch yeast when wort is cooled to the mid 50s.  Aerate well.  Let temp rise to 62 and hold for about a week.  Then raise temp to mid 60s for a few days to finish.  Transfer to keg or bottle.

[anthony]

Looks pretty good... I kind of feel like any additional comments I make are a double edged sword... I think it is important that you explore decoction, find your own way, etc. but I also think it would be a shame if there were some less than optimal outcome and you blamed that on the decoction... not that what I am suggesting below is optimal.. it just works on my system for these sorts of beers... so just a couple of more comments:

* Hefe IV is already really clovey. I don't think you will need the 4VG rest, unless you really like clove in your hefeweizens (and later vanilla... one of the reasons I like 4VG rest + Hefe IV in Weizenbock)

* I would change the rests a little bit to make the first pull bigger in volume. The more grain you boil, the more those decoction flavors are going to be emphasized. To that end, if it were me, I'd dough in lower, at acid rest range (95-97) with what will seem like a ton of liquid (2.5qts per pound), do a pull around 10 quarts, on the way to boiling, stop for a alpha rest at 155F for 10-15 minutes, then boil for ~15 minutes... then return to bring the mash up to beta at 144 for 25-30 minutes...  then pull a smaller decoction, skip the alpha rest in the pull, boil for ~10 minutes, return to mash to take the entire mash up to alpha, rest for 30-40 minutes, and then sparge (skip mash out). I guess this is more like an 'Enhanced Double Decoction' if you're following parlance on Kai's page. I think overall, this schedule will be faster than your proposed schedule while still delivering on the flavor side of things.

* The chocolate wheat is fine; many German recipes use a Carafa for color adjustment.. but if you follow the more intensive decoction schedule I posted above, I would be surprised if you didn't end up with a beer with a more golden hue than the calculated SRM would suggest.

* On the pulls themselves, don't take the words 'thick mash' too literally... you can save yourself a lot of headaches, scorching and sore stir arms by pulling a little thinner so that the pull can boil without scorching (this is another one of the advantages of doughing in at 2.5qts per pound, you have extra liquid to boil off).. you don't want something so thin it looks like chicken noodle soup but you don't want it so thick that it looks like a steaming pot of granola either.


Just my 2c... above all, enjoy the process, if after all of this you find out that it didn't make a difference for you or you figure out a way to replicate or exceed the flavor by using a tweaked grain bill with more specialty malts... awesome, move on to the next new thing :-)

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Thanks for your comments/suggestions, Anthony!  It sounds like you've got a fair amount of experience with decoction mashing and weizen brewing.

Since this will be my first decoction mash (and first step mash ever!), my goal is to design a fairly simple mash schedule.  In light of that, maybe the best course of action as far as the 4VG rest is simply to eliminate it but still use the Hefe IV yeast (which I've used several times for hefes with single infusion mash programs).  Alternatively, I could do the 4VG rest but switch the yeast to something with less clove character, like 3068.

I calculated my decoction pulls using the equation on Kai's site; I think I'll stick with those volumes for now.  My intention in doing a decoction is not to do it once and then make a determination on the merits.  I'll likely play around with decoction mashing for a while before I throw in the towel (which may not even happen based on my results!).

[hamiltont]

A couple more suggestions (speaking from experience) have a couple gallons of boiling water handy so if you miss your step after adding the boiling the decoction back into the mash you can use it to adjust the mash up. Just remember how much you use so you can deduct that from the mash out.  

Also, if you find while adding the boiling decoction back into your mash and you hit your step before adding it all, stop adding it and just stir the decoction to cool it to the temp of the step & then add it. Or have some ice on hand to adjust it down.

When your done you going to say "Wow that was a long brew day but it wasn't that difficult either." Cheers!!!

[Hokerer]

Since this will be my first decoction mash (and first step mash ever!), my goal is to design a fairly simple mash schedule.  In light of that, maybe the best course of action as far as the 4VG rest is simply to eliminate it but still use the Hefe IV yeast (which I've used several times for hefes with single infusion mash programs).  Alternatively, I could do the 4VG rest but switch the yeast to something with less clove character, like 3068.

You might also want to read the "Intensive Banana Aroma" article from Zymurgy a couple of issues back.  Some interesting information and rationale that would help you in designing your steps.

[anthony]

Thanks for your comments/suggestions, Anthony!  It sounds like you've got a fair amount of experience with decoction mashing and weizen brewing.

Since this will be my first decoction mash (and first step mash ever!), my goal is to design a fairly simple mash schedule.  In light of that, maybe the best course of action as far as the 4VG rest is simply to eliminate it but still use the Hefe IV yeast (which I've used several times for hefes with single infusion mash programs).  Alternatively, I could do the 4VG rest but switch the yeast to something with less clove character, like 3068.

I calculated my decoction pulls using the equation on Kai's site; I think I'll stick with those volumes for now.  My intention in doing a decoction is not to do it once and then make a determination on the merits.  I'll likely play around with decoction mashing for a while before I throw in the towel (which may not even happen based on my results!).

Ah, my suggested pull amounts came out of Promash. I'm sure whichever yeast you choose the beer will be tasty.

Good luck... and post your results/impressions.

[denny]

Like infusion amounts for a step mash, I haven't yet found any calculations that are accurate for pull amounts for decoctions in a cooler.  I pull a lot more than Promash recommends just to be on the safe side.