[Pawtucket Patriot]

I was pleasantly surprised at the pH drop after doing my first rest at about 103F in my decocted O'Fest last weekend.  It really does make a difference.  I didn't have to add any acid to the mash.  It was 100% Vienna Malt.

A ferulic acid rest is different than a traditional acid rest though. The former is used to help develop 4 vinyl guaiacol, a precursor to the phenolic clove flavors found in weissbier.  The latter is used to drop the pH.

[jeffy]

I was pleasantly surprised at the pH drop after doing my first rest at about 103F in my decocted O'Fest last weekend.  It really does make a difference.  I didn't have to add any acid to the mash.  It was 100% Vienna Malt.

A ferulic acid rest is different than a traditional acid rest though. The former is used to help develop 4 vinyl guaiacol, a precursor to the phenolic clove flavors found in weissbier.  The latter is used to drop the pH.

I know.  I just thought it was relevant to the topic.

[anthony]

Geez, all these acid rests getting thrown around is becoming confusing... just to be clear, I am an advocate of almost always skipping both the phytase and the 4VG rests... I only suggest the phytase rest as a place to start a decoction mash since it is a convenient temperature to get everything wet, mixed together, and there are no serious side effects from sitting at that temperature (or below it as the mash slowly coasts downward) versus sitting at a proteinase rest for longer than intended.

For the 4VG rest, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference, but I always just choose one yeast or another (or a blend of both) depending on the profile I am looking for versus trying to make one yeast do one ester/phenol.

[Pawtucket Patriot]

I was pleasantly surprised at the pH drop after doing my first rest at about 103F in my decocted O'Fest last weekend.  It really does make a difference.  I didn't have to add any acid to the mash.  It was 100% Vienna Malt.

A ferulic acid rest is different than a traditional acid rest though. The former is used to help develop 4 vinyl guaiacol, a precursor to the phenolic clove flavors found in weissbier.  The latter is used to drop the pH.

I know.  I just thought it was relevant to the topic.

Ah, gotcha.  You're right, it is relevant.  Is there a reason you don't just use an acid or acid malt to lower pH?  Seems easier than doing a separate step.

[jeffy]

I was pleasantly surprised at the pH drop after doing my first rest at about 103F in my decocted O'Fest last weekend.  It really does make a difference.  I didn't have to add any acid to the mash.  It was 100% Vienna Malt.

A ferulic acid rest is different than a traditional acid rest though. The former is used to help develop 4 vinyl guaiacol, a precursor to the phenolic clove flavors found in weissbier.  The latter is used to drop the pH.

I know.  I just thought it was relevant to the topic.

Ah, gotcha.  You're right, it is relevant.  Is there a reason you don't just use an acid or acid malt to lower pH?  Seems easier than doing a separate step.

Well, I had the day to myself and wanted to make the brewing session as complicated as possible so I did a triple decoction, starting with an acid rest.  Usually I do single infusion mashes and add lactic acid to correct for pH.  This time just the acid rest and a bit of CaCl and the pH fell right in line.

[SpanishCastleAle]

One thing I've done to speed up the process a tiny bit is; after pulling the first thick (really thick) decoction using a kitchen/hand strainer (a la Kaiser's video) I then infuse the decoction to get it up to 160* F asap.  IME, you only need to rest here for ~5 minutes, it doesn't need to be completely converted anyway (you'll get it all later).  Just monitor your pH when infusing the decoction, high pH here would be bad.

Nateo,
that pH of 3 sounds really low; would any breweries attempt to make a Berliner Weisse like that?  Could that explain it?

[gmac]

I think we need to change the name of this thread to "I did a decoction, damm!t"

[Pawtucket Patriot]

I think we need to change the name of this thread to "I did a decoction, damm!t"

Done! 

[nateo]

One thing I've done to speed up the process a tiny bit is; after pulling the first thick (really thick) decoction using a kitchen/hand strainer (a la Kaiser's video) I then infuse the decoction to get it up to 160* F asap.  IME, you only need to rest here for ~5 minutes, it doesn't need to be completely converted anyway (you'll get it all later).  Just monitor your pH when infusing the decoction, high pH here would be bad.

Nateo,
that pH of 3 sounds really low; would any breweries attempt to make a Berliner Weisse like that?  Could that explain it?

3 does sound really low. I think they must sour some wort separately, then add that to the rest of the batch to lower the overall pH. The book isn't specific on that.

[gmac]

I tried a simplified decoction today.  Did not go well. 
I mashed in 8 lbs of pale malt and 1 lb of crystal at 146 and left it for 30 minutes.  Removed about 6 quarts of thick mash and brought it to 158 and left it for 15 mins.  Brought it to a boil and boiled for 20 minutes.  I would have gone for 30 but it was getting pretty dry.

I added this back to the mash but I only got the water back up to about 148.  I added 5 quarts of boiling water and still only got it up to about 150.  Obviously I need to work on my calculations.  I guess this one will be a bit thinner than intended.  I'm glad I used a whole pound of crystal so it might have a bit of body. 
Still doing the second rest so I have no idea what the OG is but I'll let you know.

[denny]

Sounds very similar to my first try at a decoction!  I can give ya a couple tips...when I do decoctions, I keep a pot of boiling (or near boiling) water at hand in case the decoction gets too dry.  I can just add some water.  The other thing is that I have yet to find a decoction amount calculator that's accurate when you mash in a cooler.  I usually pull at least 50% more than a calculator recommends to make sure I have enough.

[gmac]

Sounds very similar to my first try at a decoction!  I can give ya a couple tips...

I think the best tip you gave me so far was "why bother"...

I only have one pot so I won't try another one without a second pot of boiling water handy. 

Also only ended up with 29L of 1.036 wort.  Going to boil that down a lot to try to get to 5.5 US gal of 1.051
Efficiency seems to be off about 5% from what I've been getting. 
Well, I tried it and I'll do it again but next brew will likely be a straight up infusion.

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Getting ready for decoction #2 this weekend.  I'll be brewing a helles lager with another hockhurz double decoction program.

About the only thing I'm going to do differently is pull the thick decoction with a large kitchen strainer and then top off with wort to hit my decoction volume.  Last time, I used a 1 qt glass measuring cup and may have pulled to thin a decoction (I got a lot of grain, but it was pretty diluted with wort).  Otherwise, I think I had a pretty sound process last time.  I hit my numbers pretty well; and when I didn't, I had a pot of boiling water at the ready.

Munich Helles
1-D Munich Helles
Author: Matt Schwandt

Size: 5.33 gal
Efficiency: 87.5%
Attenuation: 77.0%
Calories: 160.36 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.048 (1.045 - 1.051)
Terminal Gravity: 1.011 (1.008 - 1.012)
Color: 3.89 (3.0 - 5.0)
Alcohol: 4.88% (4.7% - 5.4%)
Bitterness: 18.8 (16.0 - 22.0)

Ingredients:
7.25 lb Pilsner Malt
.85 lb Light Munich
.15 lb Acidulated Malt
.30 oz Magnum (12.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.50 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
.5 ea Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 5 min
2 L White Labs WLP833 German Bock Lager

Notes
Hockhurz double decoction mash:
- 16.5 qts @ 152 (65 degree grain) ==> Beta @ 144 [30 min]
- Pull thick 8-qt decoction ==> 155 [15 min] ==> 212 [15 min]
- Remix decoction ==> Alpha @ 160 [40 min]
- Pull thin 6-qt decoction ==> 212 [10 min]
- Remix decoction with 4.5 qts H2O @ 212 ==> Mashout @ 168 [10 min]
- Collect 3.75 gal first runnings
- 15 qts @ 185 ==> Sparge @ 170 [10 min]
- Collect 3.75 qts second runnings
- 1g CaSO4, 2g CaCl added to kettle

- 90-minute boil

- Target water profile: 55 Ca, 6 Mg, 15 Na, 67 Cl, 47 SO4

[ccarlson]

I always pull the thickest mash I can to hit my volume. I never add wort to top it off. It's supposed to be thick, but, as you know, it will thin with heat.

[denny]

Mat, why not use water instead of wort to thin your decoction?  That way you won't denature the enzymes in the wort.