[jaybeerman]

100% of the people I've asked today agree that FRESH is the way to go.

yes, I'm sure that 1of1 persons agree with you.  bathroom mirrror?

[tschmidlin]

100% of the people I've asked today agree that FRESH is the way to go.

yes, I'm sure that 1of1 persons agree with you.  bathroom mirrror?

I don't need a mirror to talk to myself.

[jaybeerman]

I don't need a mirror to talk to myself.

That’s good; I’m perfectly ok with folks who talk to themselves, but the idea of people talking to themselves via the bathroom mirror kind of freaks me out.

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried. 

This might be one of those "you spell tomatoe, I spell tomato" things.    Really I think we both can agree that you're wrong, and I'm ok with that.

[blatz]

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried.  

here's one that will really "f" with you guys - Sierra Nevada refers to their Harvest Ale as 'wet hopped' while they refer to Celebration Ale as "fresh hopped"

ooooohhhhhh - you just got served  

[tschmidlin]

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried.  

What could have less storage time than hops that are picked and used within 24 hours?  If you have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, both are dried, but neither one is fresh.  If they have been dried, when would they stop being "fresh" to you, when the new harvest comes out?  Seriously, I'm curious how long you would apply the word fresh to dried hops in this scenario?  You might call them "new", or "this year's harvest", or 2010 and 2007.

This might be one of those "you spell tomatoe, I spell tomato" things.    Really I think we both can agree that you're wrong, and I'm ok with that.

If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong.

[tschmidlin]

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried. 

here's one that will really "f" with you guys - Sierra Nevada refers to their Harvest Ale as 'wet hopped' while they refer to Celebration Ale as "fresh hopped"

ooooohhhhhh - you just got served 

I won't buy the Harvest Ale for that very reason.  Seriously.

[blatz]

I won't buy the Harvest Ale for that very reason.  Seriously.

more for me then 

you two are funny. 

[jaybeerman]

you two are funny.  

nothing funny about it, this is a very serious discussion, strictly concerning hop terminology    (e.g. - read the line below)
 
oh i thought everyone agreed WET was better...I can think of a few cases where that is true, just not this one.

If you have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, both are dried, but neither one is fresh.  If they have been dried, when would they stop being "fresh" to you, when the new harvest comes out?  Seriously, I'm curious how long you would apply the word fresh to dried hops in this scenario?  You might call them "new", or "this year's harvest", or 2010 and 2007.

So hops that have been harvested, dried, nitrogen flushed and shipped directly to me aren't fresh?  Personally, I think dried hops are fresh as long as they maintain good flavor/aroma and AA%, which differs according to hop variety and storage conditions.  

Think about this from the perspective of the typical consumer, asuming the typical consumer has never seen a hop in their life.  They see a bottle with "fresh hopped" on the lable and they think to themselves, this beer is made with hops (whatever that is) that are newer rather than older.  If they see a bottle with "Wet hopped" on the lable they think, this beer is made with an unusual technique (whatever that is).  Setting it apart from beer hopped the normal (whatever that is) way.

[tschmidlin]

So hops that have been harvested, dried, nitrogen flushed and shipped directly to me aren't fresh?  Personally, I think dried hops are fresh as long as they maintain good flavor/aroma and AA%, which differs according to hop variety and storage conditions.  

If someone harvests basil, dries it, nitrogen flushes it, and ships it directly to you, is it fresh basil?  No.  As long as the hops maintain good flavor/aroma and AA% I would call them high-quality hops, but they are not fresh.  

Think about this from the perspective of the typical consumer, asuming the typical consumer has never seen a hop in their life.  They see a bottle with "fresh hopped" on the lable and they think to themselves, this beer is made with hops (whatever that is) that are newer rather than older.  If they see a bottle with "Wet hopped" on the lable they think, this beer is made with an unusual technique (whatever that is).  Setting it apart from beer hopped the normal (whatever that is) way.

This is essentially the same argument that Denise Jones from Moylan's made to me a few years ago.  I told her I am on the side of educating the consumer rather than catering to their ignorance.  She was amused and gave us beer, but she didn't agree.

[jaybeerman]

This is essentially the same argument that Denise Jones from Moylan's made to me a few years ago.  I told her I am on the side of educating the consumer rather than catering to their ignorance.  She was amused and gave us beer, but she didn't agree.

I'm all for education.  Baby steps; it's the only way.  If you entice the general public and move them slowly towards the craft (now there's a term I've begun to hate as much as you hate "wet") industry, everyone wins.  A percentage of those people will eventually become homebrewers and then we can really educate them.  I'd love to see the general public, craft beer brewers, craft industry and homebrewers all on one general page.  It'll happen; baby steps.  Then we can all simultaneously raise a pint of "Wet Hopped" beer!   

Paul, back to your thought on the Sierra Nevada terminology; what are your thoughts?  I think they're just covering all the bases by using both terms, but I wonder if all the term confusion helps or hinders the cause.  They're a great brewery with great beers, but IMO their (or anyone else doing the same thing) advertising strategies inadvertently hurt the cause (e.g. Tom refuses to drink their Harvest Ale).

[tschmidlin]

Paul, back to your thought on the Sierra Nevada terminology; what are your thoughts?  I think they're just covering all the bases by using both terms, but I wonder if all the term confusion helps or hinders the cause.  They're a great brewery with great beers, but IMO their (or anyone else doing the same thing) advertising strategies inadvertently hurt the cause (e.g. Tom refuses to drink their Harvest Ale).

I think it's safe to say that I am the only one who cares this much about this particular thing.  I'm usually one who says "here's what I think, but do what you like".  Just not here obviously.

Oh, and I saw the SN Southern Hemisphere Harvest at the store yesterday.  I looked very carefully.  It said Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the neck label, Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the bottle label, and the text had the word fresh in it two more times.  But it also said they were dried.  From their website

Like our Celebration Ale, the fresh hops in this beer are dried right after being picked then shipped immediately to Chico for brewing so that they retain their peak aromatics and flavors.

Yeah, they were fresh.  And then they were dried.  I have no objection to them calling it a harvest ale, telling how the flew the hops to the US, that is all great stuff and they obviously care a lot about their beers.  But to me, plastering fresh all over the label is false advertising.  They may have been dried as soon as possible after harvest but they're not fresh.

It also says this

To ensure the freshest hops possible, we went to the added expense of flying these hops from New Zealand to Chico so we could brew with them the week after they were picked.

Again, great, they are the freshest possible and it is probably not feasible to brew a real fresh hop ale in Chico with hops from NZ unless they bring back the Concorde.  But they are conflating "freshest possible" with "fresh".

[jaybeerman]

But they are conflating "freshest possible" with "fresh".

sounds like a marketing dept.

[blatz]

Oh, and I saw the SN Southern Hemisphere Harvest at the store yesterday.  I looked very carefully.  It said Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the neck label, Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the bottle label, and the text had the word fresh in it two more times.  But it also said they were dried.  From their website

Like our Celebration Ale, the fresh hops in this beer are dried right after being picked then shipped immediately to Chico for brewing so that they retain their peak aromatics and flavors.

Tom - if you go to their website and look at the NORTHERN Hemisphere Harvest it clearly says Wet Hop.  It would be impossible logistically to have a Wet Hop Southern Hemisphere unless they brewed it on the spot.

*edited to fix quotations

[blatz]

Paul, back to your thought on the Sierra Nevada terminology; what are your thoughts?  I think they're just covering all the bases by using both terms, but I wonder if all the term confusion helps or hinders the cause.  They're a great brewery with great beers, but IMO their (or anyone else doing the same thing) advertising strategies inadvertently hurt the cause (e.g. Tom refuses to drink their Harvest Ale).

frankly, I wish they would advertise that beer as made with the oldest, cheesiest moldiest hops around.  Then more people than Tom would not buy it, and then there'd be more for me  

I personally like the terminology though - to me it is very distinct - the 'wet' hop beer is made with hops that are not kilned/dried. the 'fresh' hop beer is one made with hops that are just harvested and processed.

[tschmidlin]

Tom - if you go to their website and look at the NORTHERN Hemisphere Harvest it clearly says Wet Hop.  It would be impossible logistically to have a Wet Hop Southern Hemisphere unless they brewed it on the spot.

They could flash freeze them and fly them up packed in dry ice. 

I personally like the terminology though - to me it is very distinct - the 'wet' hop beer is made with hops that are not kilned/dried. the 'fresh' hop beer is one made with hops that are just harvested and processed.

Their terminology sucks.  Their wet hops are not wet, they are fresh.  Their fresh hops are not fresh, they are dried.  Sorry you like it.   If they want to say "freshly harvested and processed" then they'll get no argument from me.  I wouldn't even object to calling it a fresh harvest ale.  But they're wrong to call them wet or fresh.