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If I'm using pils malt, I'll go 90 minutes to drive off the DMS. I also use a 75 minute boil with non-pils grain bills as well, just so that I have 15 minutes to get the hot break before I add any hops, reducing the risk of boil-over.
Yes, you need to remove enough water for the temperature to get hot enough for the sugars to caramelize. We never reach that point with wort. For example, maltose doesn't caramelize until over 350F. Glucose around 320F. Wort - 212F. Your wort might hit 215F though Fred. <edit>I found this cool boiling point calculator. Enter the brix, it tells you the bp.http://www.sugartech.co.za/bpe/index.php
Quote from: tschmidlin on May 16, 2011, 01:11:19 pmYes, you need to remove enough water for the temperature to get hot enough for the sugars to caramelize. We never reach that point with wort. For example, maltose doesn't caramelize until over 350F. Glucose around 320F. Wort - 212F. Your wort might hit 215F though Fred. <edit>I found this cool boiling point calculator. Enter the brix, it tells you the bp.http://www.sugartech.co.za/bpe/index.phpDo you not get carmelization at the bottom of the pot? I would think the bottom would get much warmer than boiling, but not sure how much more...
What would happen to fermentability if it did carmelize? I was recently trying to brew a very small batch to do some mash experiments, and while I used a very low boil, I nevertheless reduced the wort to sludge. It didn't look or smell burned, but the gravity was off the scale of both my hydrometer and refractometer. Perhaps I actually made extract. So I diluted it back to a reasonable gravity and pitched. But no fermentation. If I thoroughly carmelized the wort, would that remove the fermentables?
Ninety minutes produces about the maximum isomerization potential for alpha acids in wort according to work by Malawicki and Shellhammer. Beyond that time, the isomerized alpha acids are broken down to a slight degree and the bittering actually decreases. In terms of energy efficiency of converting alpha acids to iso-alpha acids, a boil time in the 60 minute range is better than 90 minutes.
Longer boils tend to darken the wort and there are maillard reactions taking place producing more melanoidins that enhance the maltiness of the wort. Not to mention increased hop isomerization or enhanced hop bitterness. The longer boil also concentrates these flavors that are created during the boil. Driving off DMS is probably one of the biggest reasons to boil longer but these other attributes also come into play as well.
QuoteNinety minutes produces about the maximum isomerization potential for alpha acids in wort according to work by Malawicki and Shellhammer. Beyond that time, the isomerized alpha acids are broken down to a slight degree and the bittering actually decreases. In terms of energy efficiency of converting alpha acids to iso-alpha acids, a boil time in the 60 minute range is better than 90 minutes. QuoteLonger boils tend to darken the wort and there are maillard reactions taking place producing more melanoidins that enhance the maltiness of the wort. Not to mention increased hop isomerization or enhanced hop bitterness. The longer boil also concentrates these flavors that are created during the boil. Driving off DMS is probably one of the biggest reasons to boil longer but these other attributes also come into play as well.Ok this is a bit over my head so if this don't come out right what can I say. So can I assume if I employ a longer boil of 90 minuets to bring out the flavors of the malt and don't start adding the hops until the last 60 minuets of the boil I can have the best of both worlds?
would you get some carmalization during a decoction ie if you basically fried the pulled part? and are any of the sugars carmalized during kilning at high temperatures?
and are any of the sugars carmalized during kilning at high temperatures?
Quote from: weithman5 on May 17, 2011, 07:10:06 amwould you get some carmalization during a decoction ie if you basically fried the pulled part? and are any of the sugars carmalized during kilning at high temperatures?I would love to test the kettle caramelization theory someday. Can a decoction be thick enough to enable the caramelization mechanism to occur? I believe it's possible but the grain may get scorched. I believe the decoction would have to be really thick almost to the point of a doughball to enable the sugars to caramelize.
Are there elevated temps at the metal-liquid interface that can cause small amounts of caramelization? That I don't know.