[ultravista]

I am working on a Rogue Double Dead Guy clone.  Everything (to this novice) looks good but the color. Rogue lists the D.D.G.A at 25 Lovibond; this recipe however is 9.5 SRM.

2-row is typically 2 SRM and Crystal 15 is 15 SRM, and that leaves the Munich at 9 SRM.

Not sure where to get coloring right unless using Weyermann Caramunich II or III to bring the SRM up.

With that being said, would the shift from 3.3 .lbs Munich to 3.3 .lbs CaraMunich impact the flavor signifigantly or impart other desirable / undesirable elements?

Regarding hops. Per Rogue, the IBU is 60; however, I don't know how this is measured, Rager or Tinseth.

The same recipe with 3.6 oz of hops calculated in Rager requires 4.5 oz calculated in Tinseth. That 4.5 oz in Tinseth changed back to Rager results in 85.5 IBU.

I am confused as to which calculation I should use. The bottom line is that I need 60 IBU.


Please critique the recipe and offer suggestions and amendments.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recipe: Double Dead Guy Test 4
Style: Mailbock/Helles Bock

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 6.43 gal
Estimated OG: 1.086 SG
Estimaged FG: 1.018
Estimated Color: 9.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 59.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.55 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 70.00 %
3.30 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 20.00 %
1.65 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 15L (15.0 SRM) Grain 10.00 %
1.85 oz Pearle [7.50 %] (60 min) Hops 53.0 IBU
1.75 oz Sterling [6.00 %] (5 min) Hops 6.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Pacman (Wyeast Labs #1764) [Starter 1000 mYeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 16.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 20.63 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F

Notes:
------
** SCALE RAGER FOR ACCURATE IBU AROUND 60 **
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[blatz]

  Everything (to this novice) looks good but the color. Rogue lists the D.D.G.A at 25 25 Lovibond; this recipe however is 9.5 SRM.

There's a lot of the same issues posted all over the internet - you can't use Rogue's color listings versus the SRM tabulated by most brewing programs - its a different scale.  IIRC Shakespeare stout is +100 "Lovibond" .

9.5 seems pretty close to what I remember DDGA being, but it may be a bit low - I would have thought 12 or so.

munich and caramunich are NOT interchangeable.  The former is a base malt, the latter a crystal/caramel. Maybe change out the C-15L for Caramunich II if you are concerned about the color.

Also - why are you using Rager when you're doing all grain?  That's usually good for partial boils - most people find Tinseth more accurate for all grain/full boils.

[ultravista]

Good question on the Rager calculation.

The Can You Brew it recipe for Dead Guy Ale used Rager to get the hop profile on-target.

For example, in Rager, this recipe with 3.60 oz of hops is 60 IBU, exactly what Rogue states as the IBU profile.

Conversely, the same 3.60 oz of hops in Tinseth is 42.5 or 18 IBU less. To get to the same IBU in Tinseth, the hops increase to 4.50 oz or nearly an additional ounce more. That 4.50 oz in Rager is 85 IBU. Very confusing ...

I need to come in at 60 IBU. How would you calculate it considering there's a difference based on which forumla you choose.

Am I missing something?

The IBU quotes on Rogue's website, would they be Rager or Tinseth? 

[blatz]

yeah, Jamil likes Rager for some reason. 

Tinseth seems more in line with what I get on commercial beers - i.e. when I brew a beer at 60 IBUs on Tinseth, I get a similar bitterness impression as a commercial beer that lists 60 IBUs.

IIRC Rager overweights early kettle additions too much versus Tinseth.  I'll look around - I recall someone doing a  study of a comparison of the two with some pretty compelling findings - its been a few years since I saw it though.

I use Tinseth, and 42IBUs is wayyy low for that beer.  I'd increase the 60min perle to get there if I were making this.

BTW - if you want to keep using Rager, its your prerogative - what's most important is that you use the same formula all the time so that you are familiar with the outcome.  That, and beware that 80-90% of the recipes you see online are using Tinseth

[denny]

FWIW, I use Tinseth in Promash.  When I some beers analyzed for IBU a few years back, the analysis came back within a couple points of what Priomash had predicted.

[ultravista]

It's tough (for me at least) coming up with a new clone recipe.

Most confusing is the unknown, whether Rogue's 60 is Rager, Tinseth, or something else. I just want to be in the same ball park.

Have you seen a recipe for Double Dead Guy?

[jeffy]

It's tough (for me at least) coming up with a new clone recipe.

Most confusing is the unknown, whether Rogue's 60 is Rager, Tinseth, or something else. I just want to be in the same ball park.

Have you seen a recipe for Double Dead Guy?

I believe Rogue's 60 IBU's is measured after the brew.  Tinseth and Rager are projected estimates.

[ultravista]

I believe Rogue's 60 IBU's is measured after the brew.  Tinseth and Rager are projected estimates.
[/quote]

So .. would you base your recipe using Rager or Tinseth? How does the hop schedule look (60 and 5 minute)?

[timberati]

Tinseth. It's consistent with most on-line recipes. But, it won't be exact. I think you'll need to get close with a head-to-head taste test and figure out what you need to adjust. As has been noted, Rogue and other breweries measure their beer's IBUs. For instance, Pliny the Elder calculates at 100+ IBUs but its actual IBUs are in the 70s (if I remember right).

You might want to  check out Steve Bader's post on "Formulating a clone recipe" http://www.baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=23167&cat=0&page=1. He references Dead Guy http://www.rogue.com/beers/dead-guy-ale.php .

[blatz]

I believe Rogue's 60 IBU's is measured after the brew.  Tinseth and Rager are projected estimates.

So .. would you base your recipe using Rager or Tinseth? How does the hop schedule look (60 and 5 minute)?
[/quote]

I think you're making this harder than it needs to be.  brew it the way the CYBI listed it first, and then adjust in the future if you need to.  hopefully you can taste your batch with the real deal to compare.

[denny]

I believe Rogue's 60 IBU's is measured after the brew.  Tinseth and Rager are projected estimates.

I'm not certain it's measured at all.  I know John uses Promash to do recipes.  But he may send it Analysis Lab for measurements.