[aviking427]

To anyone who is interested, i would love to get some feedback on my BIPA/CDA recipe. I wasn't sure about adding the biscuit malt, but wanted enough malt to back the Carafa and hops. I'm hoping to get good roasted coffee and chocolate notes to compliment the citrus from the hops. I thought it would be a nice addition to add the Chocolate malt to the vorlauf so i can get the added color, some roasted tones but lose the astringency from the husk. In addition, I was going to run a thicker mash around 150. Anywho, would love to hear what you think. Thanks!!!!!

Cascadian Ale - Art's Black (H)ops IPA V2
24-C Black IPA
Author: Art
Date: 3/7/11

Size: 6.24 gal
Efficiency: 80.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 221.63 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.066 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.017 (1.012 - 1.018)
Color: 32.44 (30.0 - 100.0)
Alcohol: 6.55% (6.0% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 67.2 (50.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
9.4 lb Pale Ale Malt
2.08 lb Biscuit Malt (Mout Roost 50)
1.56 lb Caramel Malt 60L
1.04 lb Carapils®/Carafoam®
1.04 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
0.52 lb Chocolate Malt - added at beginning of 10.0 min vorlauf
0.52 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
0.52 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 40.0 min
0.52 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30.0 min
1.04 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
0.52 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 20 min
0.58 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
1.2 tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1.04 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1.04 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
0.53 ea White Labs WLP001 California Ale

01:00:00 mash - Liquor: 3.91 gal; Strike: 165.71 °F; Target: 150.3 °F
01:10:00 virlauf - Rest: 10 min; Final: 172.7 °F

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.16

[skyler]

IMO, more than 8 oz of biscuit malt is WAAAAAAAY too much biscuit malt. 2 lbs of it is just insane. Plus, that is way too much caramel malt. I think your malt bill is way way off. I also have tasted many BIPA's with chocolate malt and many without, and I FAR prefer those without. If it was my beer, I would go maybe 86% 2-row/pale ale malt, 7% Carafa Special III, and 7% crystal. If you really want to keep the biscuit malt, than maybe adding 2-3% would be ok. Add the carafa at sparge and you will get the perfect amount of roast. I would also use 4-5 times as much 0 min hops, and a few ounces of late (5-15 min) hops.

[aviking427]

IMO, more than 8 oz of biscuit malt is WAAAAAAAY too much biscuit malt. 2 lbs of it is just insane. Plus, that is way too much caramel malt. I think your malt bill is way way off. I also have tasted many BIPA's with chocolate malt and many without, and I FAR prefer those without. If it was my beer, I would go maybe 86% 2-row/pale ale malt, 7% Carafa Special III, and 7% crystal. If you really want to keep the biscuit malt, than maybe adding 2-3% would be ok. Add the carafa at sparge and you will get the perfect amount of roast. I would also use 4-5 times as much 0 min hops, and a few ounces of late (5-15 min) hops.

Thanks for reeling me in. Much appreciated. Totally agree on the biscuit cut down. DBWI (designing beers while intoxicated) I still want to add it. After reviewing the Pale Ale section in designing great beers this morning with a clearer head, 2-3% should suffice. I'll look at fixing the hops as well. Thanks again, I'll repost the fixed recipe.

[hoser]

I agree with Skyler's assessment above, I prefer my CDA/BIPA without chocolate.  The flavors seem to clash.  My recipes are only 90% 2-row, 5% crystal, 5% carafa.  Too many ingredients make the beer muddled.  In the case of these beers, simpler is better.  The focus is on the hops, not the malt, but the beer should still be balanced/drinkable.  Move your 40 and 30 minute hop additions to 10 minutes and double them.  Then use the same hops at 0 minutes and use the amount Skyler suggested. Also, don't waste amarillo for your bittering addition, it is mainly a flavoring hop and hard to get these days.  Use magnum or warrior or something similar that has higher AA%.  You will just boil off all of the aromatics anyways.  Save the amarillo for the hop bursting or dry hop.

[aviking427]

Thanks so much, this is really great feedback.

[aviking427]

Alright, so i took all the feedback into consideration and here is what i came up with:

Author: Art
Date: 3/7/11

Size: 6.24 gal
Efficiency: 80.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 242.05 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.072 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.018 (1.012 - 1.018)
Color: 27.35 (30.0 - 100.0)
Alcohol: 7.15% (6.0% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 73.3 (50.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
14.0 lb Pale Ale Malt
.4 lb Biscuit Malt (Mout Roost 50)
1.25 lb Caramel Malt 60L
.9 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
.5 oz Warrior (16.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
1 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
.5 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 20 min
1 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
1 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
2.5 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
1.2 tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
0.53 ea White Labs WLP001 California Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

01:03:19 mash - Liquor: 4.14 gal; Strike: 165.71 °F; Target: 150.3 °F
01:13:19 virlauf - Rest: 10 min; Final: 172.2 °F

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.16

As for the comments on the Chocolate malt, the reason why i added it in the vorlauf was to get the additional color to meet the "proposed" guidelines for this beer. I read in a zymergy edition about black lagers that using the chocolate malt in the vorlauf will add no astringecy and add to the color with little to no flavor impact. According to BeerTools Pro, i am falling a bit short on color range. Is there a better way to help get the color? Secondly, does my hop profile look a bit better? Thanks again for all and any help!!!!

[hoser]

It looks much better.  If I was worried about getting the color closer to the guidelines (which there are none at the moment ), I would just bump of the carafa III.  Seriously, you won't need the chocolate malt.  Otherwise, everything else looks great. 

[aviking427]

Awesome!!!! Thanks again for your help. I'll be brewin' this on sunday with a fat cigar and a homebrew in hand (after the mash is done  )

[aviking427]

So here is the final recipe. I had to switch around the hops due to availability issues at my LHBS.


Size: 6.24 gal
Efficiency: 87.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 265.02 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.079 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.020 (1.012 - 1.018)
Color: 28.32 (30.0 - 100.0)
Alcohol: 7.84% (6.0% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 53.1 (50.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
14.0 lb Pale Ale Malt
1.25 lb Caramel Malt 60L
1.0 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
0.4 lb Biscuit Malt (Mout Roost 50)
0.5 oz Magnum (14.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
1.0 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
0.5 oz Summit (17.0%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
1.2 tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1.0 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
1.0 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
2.0 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
0.5 oz Summit (17.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
1.0 oz Citra™ (12.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1.0 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1.0 ea White Labs WLP001 California Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

01:03:41 mash - Liquor: 4.16 gal; Strike: 165.71 °F; Target: 150.3 °F
01:13:41 virlauf - Rest: 10 min; Final: 172.1 °F



I kegged last weekend and had a few last night. It is delicious!!!!!!!!    The only change i would make is to add another .5 ounces of Magnum for a bit more bitterness. I happen to like a little more roast in my BIPA's and this one gives just enough without clashing with the hops or overpowering the overall body and flavor. Thank you again for all your help!!!!!!

Art

[richardt]

Also, as a general rule-of-thumb, consider using "no more than 1 pound of crystal per 5 gallon batch." 
If you do that, you may not have to add the extra 0.5 oz of Magnum hops.
You will still have the malt structure (especially with Biscuit and Pale Malt), but it won't be overly sweet.
I think your mash temps were ideal (150 F); to make it seem more drinkable (less filling), you may even want to consider a 75 or 90 minute mash to increase efficiency and thin the body a little more).

[aviking427]

Also, as a general rule-of-thumb, consider using "no more than 1 pound of crystal per 5 gallon batch." 
If you do that, you may not have to add the extra 0.5 oz of Magnum hops.
You will still have the malt structure (especially with Biscuit and Pale Malt), but it won't be overly sweet.
I think your mash temps were ideal (150 F); to make it seem more drinkable (less filling), you may even want to consider a 75 or 90 minute mash to increase efficiency and thin the body a little more).

I'll have to give knocking down the crystal a whirl. I think the drinkability is dead-on currently. Its very easy to drink, which is rather dangerous with the alcohol content. Its rather potent but in no way hot. The buzz sneaks up on you.