[dbeechum]

I really like the idea of small club vs. large club idea as it would make it more equitable for all parties involved. Great idea Tom.

There was an award added a few years ago - The Gambrinus Club Award designed with that idea in mind -

Named for King Gambrinus the (unofficial) Patron Saint of Beer, this award is given to the club having the most Final Round points per the number of entries from the club in the National Homebrew Competition. To be eligible, clubs must have a minimum of 5 club members entering the First Round, and a minimum of 2 club members advancing to and at least one entry placing in the Final Round of the competition. Six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place.

[johnf]

The potential problem with small vs large is TBN is just as unbeatable in the large category as they are in the single category (I don't think very unbeatable at all, but opinions will vary) and you'll have clubs arranging to just barely qualify for the small category. No brewery is going to restrict production to win a medal, but a club can tell some of the weaker entrants to not put down the club name to win. Defining what makes a club large after the entries are done would eliminate this. Say the top 20 clubs by entries are competing for large club.

Over-weighting the final round would also be an interesting change. Since there are 10 sites feeding the final round (including Canada), weighting final round entries 10 times higher than first round would make it harder to win by carpet bombing the first round and would make sure that the Club of the Year was never effectively decided in the first round.

It must be nice to have people react to your success by calling for rules changes to stop you. Like outlawing serve and volley to stop Pancho Gonzales or the dunk to stop Wilt Chamberlain (not that either of those worked).

[beerpal]

One of our members (the founder) hasn't been to a meeting in probably a year because he travels a lot for work now.  So his entries don't count?

Nobody is saying that every member has to attend every meeting to be a club member. The particular club's membership are would determine who is, or is not, a member in good standing and eligible to enter beers in competition under the club name.

[tschmidlin]

There was an award added a few years ago - The Gambrinus Club Award designed with that idea in mind -

Right, forgot about that.  

[tschmidlin]

One of our members (the founder) hasn't been to a meeting in probably a year because he travels a lot for work now.  So his entries don't count?

Nobody is saying that every member has to attend every meeting to be a club member. The particular club's membership are would determine who is, or is not, a member in good standing and eligible to enter beers in competition under the club name.

Ah, see, now you've just ruled the BN in.  Members do physically get together on a regular basis.

[beerpal]

One of our members (the founder) hasn't been to a meeting in probably a year because he travels a lot for work now.  So his entries don't count?

Nobody is saying that every member has to attend every meeting to be a club member. The particular club's membership are would determine who is, or is not, a member in good standing and eligible to enter beers in competition under the club name.

Ah, see, now you've just ruled the BN in.  Members do physically get together on a regular basis.

Really? When do they get together for club meetings?

[greatshaitan]

I am on the side that feels there is an unfair advantaged and it irks me quite a bit.  I think its all comes down to what we think of when we thing "Club".  At NHC I asked 2 BN members if they could name anyone else that is in the club that isn't on the radio show, no one could answer. Also when your, lets say "President", has to ask who has won a medal so they can give them the award... seems so impersonal.  That is what irks me most.

[Brewdogz]

This is a good topic.  

People have been expressing their "concerns" about internet and forum clubs for some time now.

The main thing clubs need to provide is educating members on how to make good beer.  The second thing is to promote the hobby.  I think The Brewing Network Homebrew Club does both of these things very well.

Talked with Justin at length after the awards Saturday night.  The Brewing Network Club operates separately from the main portion of the TBN.  They hold meetings and share information just like any other club.

They are a club, they won club of the year, and they deserve it, just as much as any club who won it before them.  It's not an easy task, trust me.  It takes dedication of the members and a ton of good entries, and even more luck!!!  They should be proud, happy and still celebrating the victory.

Yeah, Gordon lives a few hundred miles from St. Paul.  Jamil lives a few hundred miles from San Diego.  But that didn't make them any less valuable to the clubs they belong to.  Sharing information and helping other members brew better beer is what makes a member important to the club.  The awards they win are secondary in my opinion.  Gordon has participated in more SPHBC meetings than many of our local members.  I know these two guys very well.  They have added value to multiple clubs, not just the ones they enter competitions under.

If you really want to look at the numbers, St. Paul would have won two of the three COTYs without Gordon's points.  That said, we might not have won without his input.  

The thing we learned, and were warned about, in regards to COTY, people will say something isn't fair and complain about it.  And some other club will undoubtedly come after it!

Curt Stock

[beerpal]

They hold meetings and share information just like any other club.

I do not believe that to be the case. When and where are these meetings? None of the "club members" I've had this discussion with ever mentioned meetings.

[bluesman]

There was an award added a few years ago - The Gambrinus Club Award designed with that idea in mind -

Right, forgot about that.  

I'm suggesting something a little different.

In beerpal's case, let's assume a small club of less than 50 members vs. a larger club of 500 members that enter the NHC. By the "law of averages" the larger club will win more medals over time due to sheer size. It doesn't necessarily mean they are better brewers. They are in fact a larger group which indicates they will win more medals over time. The catch is that in a larger sample there tends to be a higher potential for prodigies.  

For the record...I am a huge fan of the BN and don't want to suggest otherwise. I'm very happy to see them win. I just think that smaller clubs should recieve equitable recognition of some fashion.

[tschmidlin]

One of our members (the founder) hasn't been to a meeting in probably a year because he travels a lot for work now.  So his entries don't count?

Nobody is saying that every member has to attend every meeting to be a club member. The particular club's membership are would determine who is, or is not, a member in good standing and eligible to enter beers in competition under the club name.

Ah, see, now you've just ruled the BN in.  Members do physically get together on a regular basis.

Really? When do they get together for club meetings?

I'm pretty sure several of them are physically together when they do their broadcasts.  But then there's Sgt. Satan and Dirk McLarge Huge, two guys I met at NHC.  They are BN members, and physically get together frequently.  There are even guys in my own club who are BN members, although they enter under the local club if they enter at all.  any time two of them get together they can call it an official meeting.  My club changes locations half the time and sometimes I don't go because it is too far for me, so you can't say they have to always meet in the same spot.

My point being that you can't make rules to exclude the BN and not end up excluding other clubs that will also be irritated that they are no longer considered a valid club by the AHA.  I prefer to include rather than exclude people and clubs.

[theDarkSide]

Now the BN is like the New England Patriots.  After they won their Superbowls, everyone said they cheated and started gunning for them.

So maybe it's time for the other clubs to step it up and start gunning for CoTY...because you know the BN will be next year.

[Paul Gagnon]

Does anyone know how close QUAFF and DOZE came to the BN? IIRC there was a fairly tight gap (points and entries) heading into the second round, so it was won/lost with the quality of the beers placing in the second round. Even with possibly thousands more entries in the first round spread across nearly all judging centers, I think the 12-point rule did it's job and leveled the playing field.

What really happened was that the BN club members are just brewing better beers, helped by the information from their club, which fortunately, we all have access to. There is a numbers game involved, but if your club is brewing spectacular beer, the cream will rise to the top and you will still win in regions where BN members are entering, thus negating the size of the club issue.

I'm happy for the BN (still wish we could have won!) and will support their right to exist as a club. All the points about people in areas without local clubs are spot on.

[narvin]

The one thing that is a little weird is that first and final round medals are weighted the same.  Wouldn't this skew the results toward any of the big clubs, not just the BN?  Seems like it rewards quantity, not quality.

There are 10 regions... final round medals should be worth 10x as much, no?

[tschmidlin]

Now the BN is like the New England Patriots.  After they won their Superbowls, everyone said they cheated and started gunning for them.

Everyone knows the Pats cheated.